Professionaly Cleaned??????

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pa knives

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Jul 28, 2004
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Hello fellow knife nuts,

As I was cruising Ebay today looking for old Pennsylvania related pocket knives I happened upon an add that mentioned that this particular knife was "professionaly Cleaned". I have seen this before but wondered just what that meant. :confused: Does it add to the value or subtract? Is it acceptable to you or would you perfer that you cleaned it. I personally enjoy finding an old dirty knife and spending hours removing the grime and grit. I never put them on the polisher or disassemble them. :eek: What do think fellas? :rolleyes:
 
cleaning any knife period lowers the collector value. the reason is because once a knife has been cleaned you never know what else has been done to it. The exception would be polishing the bolsters, but any cleaning where rust, or tarnish is removed from the blades, springs, etc. is considered by most "alterations" and lowers the value.
 
Yep, what he just said. If it was a coin, it would be called "Wizzing". Frowned upon, heavily with collectors.
 
You are allowed to remove surface dirt as long as you don't disturb the surface of the item, damage the patina, etc. Museums usually do this with a carefull combination of compressed air and a soft brush. Distilled water is SOMETIMES used.
 
Excellent advice here. For a collecatble, it would be wise to head it.
 
I am still not clear on this. If I have a 1950's Case knife and I polish the bolsters with some never dull have I ruined the value? :confused: If I clean any rust off the blades and oil the joints so it works better have I ruined the value? Apply this same situation to a 1880's Beaver Falls knife. Is it wrong to do this at all on any knife? If it is a 1999 Case is the situation different. Just want to see what the community at large thinks.
 
"Hi-i-i-i Ethyl. How are you? How's the family? What's your son, Elwood, doing since he graduated from med-school?"

"Oh, just wonderful. Elwood was studying to be a neuro-surgeon, but decided, instead, to become a professional knife cleaner."

"Oh, how nice. I'm sure it's every bit as challenging, and the pay is probably better."

"Well yes it is, and he's met this wonderful girl, who's a professional crystal duster."

"How nice. Tootles!"

"Tootles to you too!"
 
lol pete!!!!

With an older knife that has been cleaned and its obvious, yes, for most collectors it will make them suspicious. If its a "1999", it probably will not make a difference. The older the knife that is cleaned, the worse situation you have yourself in, when it comes to "collectibles". It may not sound like it makes too much sense, but its the reality of knife collecting.

There are many knives that are counterfited, or "redone" (rehandled, blades repaired, cracks repaired, etc.) and when it is obvious something has been tampered with, for most it sends up a "red flag". Im that way myself, if it looks suspicious, it may sound too good to be true. most collectors would rather be "safe" than "sorry" later. When a knife has aquired tarnish, its less likely someone has tampered with it.

Ive personally seen quite a few counterfits, and I know personally it pays to be careful. There are unfortunately, allot of "unscrupulous" people in the knife collecting business. Jus as an example, former employees of some cutlers have been known to counterfit, oer alter knives.

Frequent a few "real" knife shows, that is knives and not gun shows (or flea markets). You'll find it out! You can also pick up a book on conterfiting, I believe it was written by Bruce Voyles (?). Had mostly case knives in it?
 
Oh, don't laugh. I've met a professional knife cleaner. He does guns and other similar things too. He's got a a college degree in this stuff. He is, in fact, a curator and conservator for the US Airforce Museum. For some people, probably their dream job.

But, the other thing to be noticed about any "profesional" cleaning beyond dusting is that it will be documented, before and after pictures, a complete record of materials and methods used, etc.

The counterfeiting issue is big. Consider, for example, a knife supposidly from the civil war. The blade may be quite authentic or at least close to that era, some relic found somewhere. But the original handle was maybe missing or not exactly interesting. So, a counterfeit handle was made complete with Union Army markings and maybe even a few notches presumably recording the owner's success dispatching rebs with it. The blade has a patina that comes from age, but the handle is clean, lacks the accumulation of a century. The seller's explaination: it was "professionally cleaned" so you could better see the markings. Yeah, right.
 
They probably call it Historic Artifact Archive Maintenance and Preservation or something. But galleries and museums do need these things done and they want it done right. There is probably a lot of chemistry classes and things of that nature.
 
Gollnick said:
... the other thing to be noticed about any "profesional" cleaning beyond dusting is that it will be documented, before and after pictures, a complete record of materials and methods used, etc....
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This is very important, and in regards to cleaning there is a method known as nondestructive cleaning, which is basically a surface clean with no destructive effects.
 
Gentlemen,

I appreciate your comments but I am still not content with the answers yet. I have been collecting for 30 years. I understand the comments about being cleaned to hide an orginal verses a fake. But my question is this. If I (me) not a professional, cleans a knife with never dull and removes the grit and crime, have I devalued this piece for another collector? Professional verses home cleaning I guess is what I am asking. Also should a person not buy a professionally cleaned knife for the reasons you have stated. I would like to know your thoughts.
 
As far as reducing the collector value. If the knife you have is an older knife, you clean it, it may with some, it may not with others (ruin the value), as far as potential buyers. Anyone who collectors on a higher scale is less likely to buy it (if its older and has been cleaned). Now this is not to say that no one will buy it. If you have been collecting knives for over 30 years, and you have been involved with knife shows and other collectors, I would think you already have a pretty good idea about tyhese things? There are allot of counterfits out there and serious collectors are aware of this.

Your knives are not ruined by cleaning them, its just that you may have a harder time with resale, if you decide to sell them, thats all. Me personally, I will polish bolsters on newer knives if they get too tarnished. usually the only thing I do is make sure the blades have a good thin coating of rennasaise wax. I also keep all knives in a room with temperature and humdity control (de-humidifier).
 
They probably call it Historic Artifact Archive Maintenance and Preservation or something.
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Something like that, I'm sure.

He is a professional conservator and curator. I met him onboard Columbine III. We talked for a while. I shared my love of history. He asked if I'd like to slip back and see The Sacred Cow which was still under conservation. (For the uninitiated, these are former presidential aircraft.) In talking, I found out that his specialty is the conservation and preservation of metal artifacts. Well,. who should a knife collector want more to talk to? It turned out that his personal interest is in knives and guns.

He pointed out that a cigarette burn would definitely NOT be fixed on one of the chairs on the Sacred Cow. Why? It's an ugly scar and detracts from the visual appearance of the plane. Why? Becasue it was Franklin D. Roosevelt's cigarette that made that burn. That's history!

And so that's the question: where does the value of a knife come from? If it's the artistic beauty, then cleaning and polishing may increase that value. But if the value comes from history, then cleaning that removes history will decrease the value.



His recommendation for knives, by the way? Ren wax.
 
Pa Knives. Herb Aycock is a retired knife cleaner. He is a well recognized name in the world of knives and probably has cleaned thousands of knives during his working years. If you want to get a clearer picture of what has been touched upon in this thread just do a Google search using his name. You will find many different circumstances that refer to knives being cleaned to one degree or another. I am sure you will get a whole pile of information to satisfy you. Have fun.
Greg
 
Gentlemen,

Thank you for all of the information. I actually already had a decsion in my head about his topic years ago. I just wanted to generate some discussion so that others might realize when and when not to "give that knife a thorough cleaning" :eek: Thanks guys.
 
Gollnick said:
...
He pointed out that a cigarette burn would definitely NOT be fixed on one of the chairs on the Sacred Cow. Why? It's an ugly scar and detracts from the visual appearance of the plane. Why? Becasue it was Franklin D. Roosevelt's cigarette that made that burn. That's history!
...
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Tales that go along with this kind of thing:

1. My mother hired a decorator once to help her with the house several years ago (a waste to me and dad, but mom thought she needed it :rolleyes: ). One of the older tables that she bought with her had a scar. The decorator made mom swear she'd never have it fixed because "That's Character".

2. My father in-law repairs furniture and is often asked what should be done to "it", "it" being some old piece. Baring repairs, his answer is almost always another question: "Are you going to use it or is it an investment?

If you are using it, do what ever you need to make it usable.

If you are collecting it, wipe it off and otherwise leave it alone.

...so much for my 2 cents worth....
 
Gollnick said:
He is a professional conservator
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This is the most important word relating to the whole matter.

To renovate is a whole different thing. "Professional cleaners" will renovate, ie. bring it back to "as new" condition or as nearly so as possible. One of the scales cracked.... hmmm... let's replace it with a new one that "looks" the same. The carbon blade has a nice grey patina from age, so let's buff it up all nice and shiny as it should be. That destroys its "age" and also its value.

A conservator, on the other hand will conserve. ie. stabilise it, and prevent it from becoming in a worse condition than it is now.

Conserve, not renovate. The same applies to any historical artefact.

So it has a cracked handle, or a ding on the bolster, or grey blades. So what!! The knife has a history, and those characteristics are a part of its having lived! Don't undo that history. :)

If you want a perfect knife. Buy a mint one. (Of whatever age). Otherwise, be satisfied with one that has lived, and shows it, and there is much to be said for one of those.

Cheers
Rod
 
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