Projects and getting involved in the knifemaking process

Keith Montgomery

Keith Montgomery

Joined
May 9, 2000
Messages
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I was wondering how many of the members here like undertaking large projects with makers. What I mean is the type of project that takes lots of research and time on your part so that you can get all the info that the maker will need. I ask this because at this time I am in the process of finding a maker that will make me a Michael Price dress bowie replica.

Getting as much pertinent information as possible on the original knife is involving quite a bit of time and effort on my part. I am finding this to be quite rewarding. It makes me feel more involved in the process and I like that more than just saying to a maker, "make me a knife", and then sitting back and waiting. I am also learning about Michael Price and his knives. I was the same way about bowies. When I started collecting them I had to learn as much as possible about Jim Bowie and the original bowie knives as I could.

The fact that I enjoy being a part of the process that goes into the making of my knives is the reason that I never purchase a knife from a dealer or purveyor. The knife was not made for me, it was just made. Purchasing a knife this way has never been of interest to me. It has also probably meant that I have been somewhat of a pain in the butt for some of the makers that I have worked with. I have probably gotten more involved than they would like.

How about you guys? Do you like to take an active role in the process that goes into the making of your knives, or is that not something you find important?

Makers, what do you think of customers like me? Do you like it when we get involved? How much involvement is OK, and how much is over the top?
 
Keith, the interaction with the maker is a huge part of the fun for me. The knife is great, but the relationship built with the maker is priceless.
 
Hi Keith,

I find working with a maker on a "ground up" project to be extremely enjoyable and rewarding. It's not essential to me that all my purchases unfold this way, but it is the most satisying way to acquire a custom knife.

Roger

PS - the Price project sounds terrific.
 
Me personally, it is dealing with the customers that makes it all worth while.

Knifemaking can often times be a grind, but when you deliver a knife and then hear back from the customer.....that is what it is all about.

Tom
 
Making friends is one of the best perks about knifemaking. :)
 
As my collecting habits and tastes become more defined I am finding that what you describe is the most rewarding way of acquiring a knife.

I still see pieces that blow me away, and if I am lucky enough to be able to match funds with availability I will buy.

But as I said the real joy is the development and exchanging of ideas and vision, and the relationship that builds up during that process. I do a far amount of doodling my own designs, but every so often I draw one that I put to one side and say "one day I'll have that made". This is also one of the most attractive aspects of the "custom" market, rather than the "production" side of things, the fact that I can work with an individual with pride in what they do, and together come up with something that holds parts of the individiuals involved, that is unique and truley "custom made".

Keith, I have only one issue and that is .. the more of yourself you invest in a piece the more nerve wracking it can become - did I chose the right material? Is that right? Will that work? Could I have made a better choice? By instisting of that aspect have I missed out on a better option or constrained the maker etc etc.{So you can imagine how a maker must feel every time they put their knives out into the public domain} This is why I always go in open minded and willing to be flexible and accept most of the changes a maker will propose. ... Do you experience this or is it just me?

Stephen
 
First, I have to say, if you are working on a Micheal Price dress bowie, you should look at Phil Lobred's site and e-mail him. He is a wealth of knowledge.

Projects that I undertake are usually with a specific maker in mind. I don't do historical pieces. I try to push a maker to take their skills, and kick it up a notch, blow out the satiation, and add some discomfort.

For these makers, I start out with a drawing of what I want the knife to look like. I have done this with Pat Crawford, Rod Chappel,Bob Crowder, Jim Siska, and Nick Wheeler. With Nick, he did the first drawings, and I changed them. I specify handle material, blade material, blade finish, sheath (if there is one) blade length, and OAL. I am not a tyrant about it, I want the maker to have as much input as I do, and enjoy the process as much as possible.

And then, sometimes there are big surprises. I drew the first piece that I wanted Nick to make for me as carbon steel bowie with hamon, and the second piece as a through-tempered dagger. Well, Nick made that beautiful Jelly Roll damascus fighter for the Reno show, and the shape was EXACTLY what I wanted, so I purchased it. Now, Nick is going to do the dagger with hamon, which ratchets up the OH SH*T factor considerably. He feels that he is up to it.

I have found that many makers are very receptive to this input, but there is a caveat. You cannot push a maker with a specific style and work manner into a direction that they cannot/will not go. If a maker has a "New Englandy" type of forging style, trying to get them to do the "Arkansas" style of forging will probably yield disastrous results, with everybody being upset. Does this make sense? Trying to get Moran to make a Loveless or vice versa will not work too good, is what the gist is here.

Also, if the project is not due for two years, calling on a weekly basis is probably not going to be appreciated. I did this, once, and have not heard from the maker again, I think I personally put him in the loony bin.

Best Regards,

Steven Garsson
 
Keith-

It's refreshing to read your post. Not at all saying most collectors aren't... but it's nice to see just how excited and passionate you are about your next project.

There are three collectors in this post that have shown me the same level of interest and passion in projects we have going.

For me, this is definitely one of the reasons to do what I do.

Well, that is, until you enter Danbo into the equation :p

Seriously though, I like the type of interaction you're speaking of very much.

I can't wait to see your Price style knife. The gold-rush era knives are some of my most favorite!

Nick

ps- just for kicks, I think you should get a matching push-dagger ;)

http://www.wheelerknives.com
 
I personally think that this is the ideal way to buy a knife. I agree with points made by Stephen and Steven above. If I am going to spend anywhere near 4 figures on a knife it will be something I have had some input on or I have to simply love it. The maker's name alone is not enough to do it for me either. I simply don't get my kicks dropping cash on knife simply because of who made it. I simply would rather go to a knife show and browse, handle and take notes of things that interest me. I then narrow down my choices of makers, select one, sit and wait for the result.

Hell, anybody with enough cash can buy a Fisk bowie. Not everyone in the world however will get a chance to design one with him. Think about it.
 
Tom Krein said:
Knifemaking can often times be a grind...
Click to expand...

Very punny. :p :D

Stephen F said:
Keith, I have only one issue and that is .. the more of yourself you invest in a piece the more nerve wracking it can become - did I chose the right material? Is that right? Will that work? Could I have made a better choice? By instisting of that aspect have I missed out on a better option or constrained the maker etc etc.{So you can imagine how a maker must feel every time they put their knives out into the public domain} This is why I always go in open minded and willing to be flexible and accept most of the changes a maker will propose. ... Do you experience this or is it just me?
Click to expand...

I don't find that it becomes nerve wracking, but I have been known to make changes in mid stream (more than once on occasion); trying to get just the right material, guard design, etc. This is probably something that irritates the maker, but I hope that I have never been considered a total jackass.

Kohai999 said:
I have found that many makers are very receptive to this input, but there is a caveat. You cannot push a maker with a specific style and work manner into a direction that they cannot/will not go. If a maker has a "New Englandy" type of forging style, trying to get them to do the "Arkansas" style of forging will probably yield disastrous results, with everybody being upset. Does this make sense? Trying to get Moran to make a Loveless or vice versa will not work too good, is what the gist is here.
Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense. If I am looking to have a certain knife made, I will ask a maker is he/she is comfortable making this design (if it is a style the maker has not made before). If not, I will look to another maker. Once I get a certain style in mind I look for a maker that makes that style and never try to get one to work outside of his/her comfort zone.

There have been times when I have gone to a maker, let that maker know the basics of what I want and then waited for the knife. There have been other times that I have been far more involved in the end result. Either way, the knives have been great, but I find that I prefer a more hands on approach.
 
In the case of knowing the maker first, and what they CAN do, but do not make part of their regular repetoire as it were.

I once asked a maker to do a curved, semi-interframe style bolster, and they had not done it before, and the end result was less than pleasing for both of us. That was a learning experience.

I asked Bob Crowder to use gold pins, and to bead blast the flats, and satin finish the hollows, that was a marvelous experience, I will post that knife someday. Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn, either way, it is time well spent.

Phil not only maintains a great website, but is a virtual fountain of lore of the SF style knife. He lives within walking distance of my house, and has become a cherished acquaintance. He is very generous with the knowledge that he has gained,so if you want to contact him via snail mail, the AKI part of the webpage has an address, I highly recommend that you write him, he may provide an e-mail address, and some makers that could help with your quest.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Like the rest of you, the interchange in designing and creating a piece has been very rewarding indeed. I have knives with my input in my collection from Larry Davidson, Gib Guignard, David Broadwell, Sal Manaro, William Burger, and of course Tai Goo.

Pending projects in design and input stages are upcoming from Nick Wheeler, David Broadwell, Jim Hammond, Tai Goo, and John Parks.

I do not get too involved. I like to give an overview and like Steve allows, I like it if the maker pushes themselves a bit. But I also know the maker wants and needs freedom to breathe his ideas and character into a knife, so I allow that freedom. "Go ahead and change it as you see fit. I would rather you be happy with your work than simply satisfying my rigid requirements." I have yet to be disappointed.

Keith Montgomery said:
The fact that I enjoy being a part of the process that goes into the making of my knives is the reason that I never purchase a knife from a dealer or purveyor. The knife was not made for me, it was just made. Purchasing a knife this way has never been of interest to me.
Click to expand...
My caveat is this: Keith, the knives in my collection that were made by Hill Pearce had no influence whatsoever from me. Still, they mean as much or more than every other piece I own. This is grounded because now I have a direct relationship with him as a friend. There are others in my collection that give me as much pleasure from knowing I have a part of their work. You are limiting yourself to unknown riches by not considering such. Plus, it makes the world go round.... ;)

Thanks.

Coop
 
Like Jim, I have found that loose guidelines work the best as far as the makers I have done this with. Great thread with many interesting points ringing true for me.

Watching Jim's aquisitions of Pierce knives has been very enjoyable for me.
Those chases can be a lot of fun. (Saw those ads in KW Coop! :D).

One that I enjoyed for years was looking around for a Carson auto. The quest for an existing knife can bring much enjoyment especially with the help of friends.
 
Kohai999 said:
In the case of knowing the maker first, and what they CAN do, but do not make part of their regular repetoire as it were.
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Also want to emphasize what Steven said. I think that is key to the decision and the confort level of the maker and the collector.

Did I mention that this is a great thread! :cool:
 
Well, I am the opposite side of the coin, as I have yet to have a maker make a knife to my specs. I suppose at the heart of it is my inability to plan far ahead, and I plain just hate waiting for things.

So, every knife I own, has been bought from a dealer, the maker, but it was already made with no input from me, or a fellow collector, and yet, I am very pleased with my collection.

I would point out this though: In many ways, I would rather buy a knife a maker made, on his own, without input from anybody, because it is then his vision and art, and, while there may be exceptions, many would agree that you wouldn't want to go to an accomplished artist and tell them what to paint, or at least, I wouldn't want to, I want their art, not mine, I'm not an artist. :)

That being said, sure, one day I'll have a knife made with my input, but, I don't feel like I'm missing out just because it hasn't happened yet. I see thousands of knives, a few call out to me, I buy them, if I can afford them, and I'm happy. :)
 
Kohai999 said:
Sometimes the idea IS to push the maker outside of the comfort zone

In the case of knowing the maker first, and what they CAN do, but do not make part of their regular repetoire as it were.
Click to expand...

I don't mean that I won't ask a maker to try something they haven't done before, but I won't push them to do something they really don't feel comfortable doing.

Coop, you make an excellent point. Someday I want a knife by Bill Moran and I realize that I am not going to get one that has been made specially for me. I have already tried to order one from him and it was a no go. At that point I will be happy to get one where ever I can. I will replace the enjoyment I get from putting my two cents into the design of the knife with the enjoyment I will get from researching what knife I want and the hunt to find it.

When it comes to replicas, if you want it to be exact then there is really no input you can have. Other than researching the original knife there is nothing that you can do, everything about the knife has has been pre-determined. The research though, is very rewarding.

Ari, your points are excellent as well. I would not think of taking the artistic freedom from the maker, but even so, there are still areas where I can have input without compromising his/her artistic license.
 
Not trying to side track, but the market, makers, and all types of collectors depend on both the custom one off specified orders, and the immediate, ready to go purchasers equally (not to mention the dealers). In my mind they can't exist without each other so its good news that different types of collectors, and collectors who do both are out there.

This reliance is both financial and artistic providing in turns inspiration and secondary markets. Guys who buy what the makers want to make provide a solid steady market and allow a free flow of makers ideas and creativity to be seen and experienced, it also allows makers to develop skills and perfect techniques through repeat practice of certain techniques. Some "Participative" collectors help finance some more radical ideas, and sometimes give a maker a nudge to try something different - and they are often reliant on a sound secondary market of more immediate purchasers to keep on collecting!

I really can't get enough of the diversity of knives , makers and collectors in the custom market, it means I'll never get bored, always be learning, and will always have something to lust after ...... crikey, I think I have just defined Happiness! :D

Great topic Keith, sorry to digress slightly!

Stephen
 
I don't feel the knives I make are considered collector grade. I make basic working/using knives without alot of embellishments. I do have a common run of 4 to 8 "custom" orders going most of the time. These being knives that are made to customer specs. I enjoy both aspects of taking custom orders and using my own creativity when making knives. I'm very honest with the client about my limitations on what I can do. We discuss the options and most of the time can come to an agreement on the knife they want. I like it because it adds a challenge to make something from someone elses creativeness. It is most satisfying when the project is complete with a happy knife buyer. :D
Scott
 
From my experience a well prepared customer is a pleasure to deal with on a special project but a customer with a vague idea of what he wants and who keeps changing his mind is the customer from he..

The well prepared customer allows the maker to concentrate the details of the project agreed to before hand instead of trying to figure out exactly what the customer wanted from a notebook full of conflicting notes and copies of emails..I am a maker who likes to have the details nailed down before the project starts or as Gus says lets the maker have his own input into the project within some agreed to guidelines.
 
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