Propane forges for heat treating?

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Jul 28, 2003
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I've been looking into doing my own heat treating of carbon steel (1084) I don't forge but I have been looking at those propane forges for heat treating. They are attractively priced and they don't require being connected to an electrical power supply. I don't want to HT at my house due to danger of fire. I am thinking that I can keep the forge at the welding shop where I work and roll it outside to HT. I don't have to worry about smoke from quench oil. or danger of heat from the forge setting anything on fire.

My questions are How do you precisely control the temp to accurately HT?

Do the propane forges heat faster than electric furnaces?

How much greater are the problems of scale and decarburization with propane?

Drew
 
I can answer a few of those questions.

I use propane to do my heat treating. I dont know if it is faster or creates more or less scale than an oven, but if you are careful, you should be ok.

I have my heat treating forge running very low. I have a digital pyrometer that allows me to control the heat inside the forge to within a few degrees. My forge is set up so that the flame curls around the inside, but I still have to be careful of hot spots. I move and turn the knife around a lot. It probably takes 5-10 minutes for a knife to come up to proper temp at the level I have the forge running.

I would not worry about too much flames from quenching if you are using a decent quench oil. My tank will sometimes flame up if I am doing a large knife, but for a knife with a blade 4-5 inches long, I rarely have a problem. I use an old military ammo can for a quench tank. Works great and has a top to put on for the rare occasion that a large knife does cause a flame up.

Hope this helps.
 
If you don't have a digital pyrometer or thermocouple handy, and want to HT in your forge, you can do it by eye, and get a good result. Smiths have done so for ages untold and all of the best blades produced before modern industrial technology made heat control practical have been produced in exactly this manner.

There really are only a couple of tricks to bear in mind.

First, this is a decent way to HT a simple steel, that requires minimal soak time. More complicated stuff, with lots of carbides will take longer to get fully austinized, and thus, will not harden fully without the required soak. 1084 is ideal for this purpose, L6 much less so!

It may be a good idea to practice with a bar of the steel you want to HT before you try on a ready to finish knife, so you can get a good idea of what you're doing.

Heat slowly, and keep your shop lights very low, so you can discern subtle differences in the color of the steel.

Once the steel gets hot enough, you will notice a temperature gradiant, with bright glow towards the hot area and dimmer in the cooler area.

Curiously, if you heat the steel to above the temperature required to austenize it, you will see, as it cools, a darker region between two brighter regions. This "shadow line" will move slowly, towards the middel of the workpeice, with brighter glow in either side of it. In a knife, you will often see two such lines, one coming in from the point, and the other coming in from the tang.

This shadow line is the area where the steel is transforming. The hotter side of it (in the middle of the workpeice, if the whole thing has gone above autenizing temp) is the austenite, the shadowed area is in transition, and the cooler side is a mix of other stuffs, mostly pearlite.

The trick is to evenly and slowly bring the whole thing up to temp until the shadow line dissapears. The problem with this is that points often take heat very quickly, and if you try to go too fast, you can cook the hell out of your point long before the body gets up to temp. I reccomend taking the blade out of the heat quite often as you work up to temp to let the point cool while the body of the blade holds its heat longer. It can also help to hold the point with your tongs, and heat from the tang end, letting the heat bleed into the point until you're just about there.

Once the body of the blade is up to temp, quickly let the point catch up, and then plunge into your quench.

If you're careful and slow with the heat, the steel shouldn't be so hot that a quick plunge into the quench would cause your oil to flash. Often, if a good quench oil is flashing (igniting) it's one (or more) of a couple of common problems.

The steel is too hot
There is an insufficient quantity of quenchant for the size of the peice you are treating
or
the blade is going too slowly under the surface of the quench.

When you heat oil with glowing hot steel, it is going to evaporate some amount of the oil. That evaporated oil hangs around on top of the surface as flammable vapors. If there's glowing hot steel hanging around in those vapors, where they are freely in contact with atmospheric oxygen, they will ignite, causing the flash fire we all know and love! Quench time is not the moment to suddenly decide that you're indecisive, or need to stop and consider. All of your consideration, planning, and decision making should be in place before the steel starts getting hot for hardening!
 
Scale/decarb should be a non issue(with proper temp/atmosphere). I always dip my blade in oil, and then into the forge it seems to protect it from the little scale that may have formed. You will have to watch out for over heating(as mentioned), my venturi forge at 3-4psi still melts brass!!! You will want to forge stuff if you have one, and then you will want to forge weld for hours on end :(
 
I don't want to hi-jack this thread... but I plan to HT in my forge and I have an older pyrometer/thermocouple that I'm going to tap a hole for. When putting my thermocouple into the forge... I know that you need it in the general vicinity of your work area... but how far can it go out there without becoming toast??
 
I don't want to hi-jack this thread... but I plan to HT in my forge and I have an older pyrometer/thermocouple that I'm going to tap a hole for. When putting my thermocouple into the forge... I know that you need it in the general vicinity of your work area... but how far can it go out there without becoming toast??

It depends on the thermocouple. Some hold up to oxidizing atmospheres very well. If you're unsure what you've got, go to the Omega website and order yourself up a probe with the Omegaclad XL jacket. These stand up to forge atmospheres very well.

A few things to add to what Dan said above for the OP:

- Go forced air burner over venturi. It's much easier to tune the forge atmosphere and control temperature.
- To make sure you get a more even heat and avoid hot spots, use a muffle inside the forge. All this is is a piece of pipe with a cap welded on one end that goes inside the forge to allow for an indirect radiant heat to heat your knife instead of being in the blast of the burner.
- I usually toss a few hunks of wood into the muffle as It bring a piece to temp. This will eat up oxygen inside the muffle and help reduce surface oxidation.
- You can also use PBC or another anti-scale compound on your knife as you HT to avoid decarb and scale. Heat to about 500F, sprinkle on the "magic powder" and go to HT. Most of it will pop off in the quench and what doesn't is easily cleaned up with a scotchbrite pad and hot water. It is important to not though that if you overheat the PBC, it will stick like mad to the blade and can pit it if you really overshoot the temps.
- Leave your thermocouple touching the muffle to get a better idea of the tube of the material itself. Then, gauge the color of the steel of your muffle tube where the probe is touching it and compare that color to your knife blade. When your knife matches the color of the correct temp reading on the pyrometer, time to quench!

All of that said, I just ordered an Evenheat from Tim Zowada so I don't have to do all of this anymore :)

-d
 
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