Proper Kiritsuke usage (re: Shun Kiritsuke Blue) *long, but please read*

[brewmeister bill]

Almost feel silly even posting this...knives are knives...hold the round end, keep the sharp end where your gonna cut, done. But Now apparently, theres different uses for different Japanese names...ugggh.
I'll start from beginning, please bear with me.

I enjoy cooking, a lot...When I came upon a Henkels at a neighbors estate sale (along with a decent paring and boning knife), the wife gave it to me. Served me well for over a year, real happy, but liking some of Shuns offerings (I have a few ZT pocket folders, and they're on same fb page) I got in a friendly discussion, and I comment "I love my Henkel, but by damn I LUST over a few of them Shuns". The commenter (I now see is Admin) offers to "send you a tester to see if we can displace that JA for a bit". Long story short, on 12/24, I get a package that has the Shun Blue 10" Kiritsuke, and a hinoki cutting board.
I email the guy, says it was a giveaway (they had stuff listed, but nothing like THAT), Merry Christmas, and enjoy!

So the kid in me tears it all open, the grownup in me reads..."Kiritsuke is one gorgeous knife yet it takes some practice to be able to use it properly. That's why it's known as the Japanese master chef's knife
Therein lies my worry...I've never had equipment this nice (300 knife?? never), so my first thought was to read up on traditional Kiritsuke use...nothing worth value found. Short of starting over in a cooking class with knife skills, what would one recommend? It's not a lack of shill....I'm blazingly fast with a traditional belly shaped 9" Chef knife, or even a Santuku(sp?). Am I over thinking it? Seems with the blade shape it's more of a slicer than chopper, belly is fairly flat, but can still get good chopping action...just worried about messing up an expensive knife....that kinda stuff rarely falls in my lap. When it does, I like to properly care for it. I know for sharpening, it's off to Shun, or someone who will do 16* angles. It's damascus (sort of) in which the high carbon "edge" is partially covered by stainless steel. And it handles like a dream.

Any tips, "look out for"s, etc? I appreciate any guidance here...other than keeping clean & sharp, I never really thought about that portion of my culinary knowledge. Thanks all.

 

[Tbaggin]

I believe you'd use the "pinch" grip. Gripping near the center of weight by pinching between thumb and pointer while letting the rest of your fingers lightly wrap around for stability. My .02

 

[brewmeister bill]

I believe you'd use the "pinch" grip. Gripping near the center of weight by pinching between thumb and pointer while letting the rest of your fingers lightly wrap around for stability. My .02

YES...I forgot to add that...I use the traditional "pinch" grip on my knives (I guess watch Alton...looks just like that) I do find in my normal pinch point location (just in front of the wooden grip), the Blue feels front heavy. Might be by design, But if I choke up about an 1/8" of an inch, it's perfect. The wooden grip feels odd...probably since I'me used to the western "oval".

I left that stuff out...pinch grip, when I'm slicing, I do the "1 in front, 2 behind" curled grip in the object (onion, etc). Some of the terms I'm not hip on...Grew up learning from my Sicilian Grandmother and and Aunt, then after military, learned from a convict on work release at the Waffle House...decent guy, could "tournette" the hell out of taters (think I'm calling it right...the lil footballs LOL). Got back into it on 05 after a accident ended PD career. (sorry for life story...figured iti was easier to know I covered crap)

 

[Tbaggin]

How does pinching the blade feel? I've used some heavy knives like this. It's all about balance. USUALLY..
Like this guy!
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=rfQw7VuQxbU&desktop_uri=/watch?v=rfQw7VuQxbU
Hope this helps

 

[franzb69]

most japanese would use a pointing grip for most cutting tasks. and they would use this closer to the way a sujihiki would be used. draw cut, slicing. not to say that it can't be used for some chopping tasks and push cutting. halfway between a gyuto and a "yanagi" but this kiritsuke is closer to a sujihiki since it's a double bevel knife than a yanagi that's single bevel and used for slicing sashimi.

real kiritsuke's are also single bevel, from what i know at least. there are kiritsuke's like this shun and they were a lot less common.


just treat it like a chef knife, well... at least like a japanese chef would. rock chopping won't work as well. push cutting and light chopping only for the most part. draw cutting, goes without saying. =D


pretty much what i can share.

but a pinch grip will work, it's what i use. i don't really have a kiritsuke but i plan to get one eventually.

 

[brewmeister bill]

Thanks guys

Tbag, here is an illustration that shows my grip pretty well (found on a Kershaw site no less LOL)

Franz, that's the one thing I learned..."real" or "traditional" Kirit's appear to be single bevel, this one is double (thankfully, as I'm a southpaw). I don't know anything about the Japenese styles such as sujihiki, yanagi. I know there's far to much to explain to me in a thread post, But it gives me an area to start research, Thank you.
I found a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z_d0soK1cI ) that demonstrates the different cuts. I despise Jamie Oliver (sorry, just my opinion, it wont change), but it had the styles I was thinking in rapid succession. From ;.27 to 0.55 was my traditional chop (without all that ridiculous slapping the blade all over the board....cripes, it's not a drumstick!!), from 0.56 to 1.08 is what I'm using with the blue...with the balance it isn't difficult to get used to. I might wind up trading it with someone for a Santuku or traditional Chefs knife of similar quality, but for know, I'm enjoying doing my usual prep with a different style

 

[Tbaggin]

That's the one! From what I've seen most of the long slender Japanese blades are slicers. Single bevel is for fine work, double is for bigger jobs. I've seen many guys use the knife like yours for big pieces of meat/fish.

 

[brewmeister bill]

That was my biggest worry...that the Kirits weren't suitable for say, prepping a rack of lamb for cooking or somethin. Even if I don't stick with that one (go back to traditional), I'll stick with Shun...I was blown away when I got it, I hadn't entered anything, was just a 4th person in a convo about blade shapes (only luck I usually get, is bad luck)....kinda makes me want to learn more of the Japanese style stuff to use it properly

 

[franzb69]

i am actually looking into kiritsukes and that shun does sound good for what i would need it for. i too am a southpaw. lol. but i lack the cash for one at the moment. then there's the trouble that i live halfway across the world from you guys. lol.

my cutting style wouldn't be much of a problem as i can use that knife just like any other chef knife i use since i'm used to japanese gyutos now. i used to rock chop and now i have found myself using a push cut style now after adjusting for a few months using japanese knives. i quite like it and a lot faster. less stress on the edge, so long as you keep a light touch on the downward stroke, the knife has to be sharp enough to be able to cut through practically anything with a light touch if you wanna do push cutting.

i would treat it just like any other gyuto i have, push cutting.

here's how i try to do it, videos are just examples not really me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7MM-aBNrHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcnyDXn75ZU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8lmfxOStXw

i use the racket grip and the pinch grip for the most part, as seen in the how to use a japanese santoku video. i never use a pointer. it's really just a matter of preference. so long as it works for you.

 

[brewmeister bill]

double post. sorry

 

[brewmeister bill]

That 3rd vid was great (other than the piano LOL). That's the one thing that I love with this knife over my old one....the speed and how nicely I can turn veg into a nice pile of mirepoix. Probably a combo of style, edge angle (16*) metal composition (carbon for edge, stainless [i think] for the outer wrap) etc...I get a dumb grin when I can now blast through an onion with paper thin slices (same with tomatoes....holy hell). Now that you mention push cuts (and seeing it in the vids), thats essentially what I've gone to using. I don't mean to sound like I dislike the Kiru...I'm sure I was the same way the first time I started using an 8" Chef in earnest. Granted, I'm no Ramsay or Flay, Just have really taken to makin family & friends smile through food in my post career mode

Like you, I go between the racquet and pinch grip...never warmed up to the pointer grip...feels weird having digits sticking out LOL
Sounds like you'll like it too when you get your hands on one. As odd as the blade shape is (to me), it seems like every portion is perfect for something.

Now, if you want knife porn, check out this Tanaka Kurouchi (I think I can veer a little offtopic in my own post lol).... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWPI6IFKPFE

 

[franzb69]

sorry to say, no matter how great a chef is ramsay, his veg knife skills has gone down to crap. lol. but he can sure fillet a fish and debone a chicken as fast as most folks in the kitchen.

and don't believe in anything he says about knives and how to sharpen them. i love the guy's cooking skills and palette, aside from the fact that he's a fellow southpaw but there are things that he does wrong, no matter how many michelin stars his restos have.

Not a fan of Flay, and i don't watch his shows.

the japanese just love the pointer grip. it's how they learned how to cook. most asians too, as i am very much an asian. started cooking that way, it got corrected after culinary school in my late 20s.

i find that the middle part of the kiritsuke, or most japanese chef knives (similar profile) is that it's perfect for push cutting. the heel of the knife is great for starting of the draw cut for slicing. the tip is super great at fine work with shallots and such. and yes, your kiritsuke is cladded with stainless steel. so the knife is pretty much what i am looking for in a good all arounder.

Shaun, the guy doing the demo on that tanaka is a great guy. lol. he's also a knife maker. he designed a chef knife in s35vn. pretty awesome knife as well. specially for the price.


try to play around with the shun and you might not wanna let it go after a while. Aogami is an awesome carbon steel. I have a Santoku in the same steel also cladded with stainless steel, an Aritsugu Kyoto. I love the knife to bits. gets insanely sharp, stays sharp super long, holds an anorexic angle and holds it well. It chips if you're not careful. But then anything north of 60RC will chip if you're not careful.

hopefully if you still have the knife in the next few weeks and if you decide to let it go shoot me a pm, by then i might have enough cash to take it off your hands. lol. i have a US address you can send it to, less trouble that way.


when having a japanese knife, you will ALWAYS want to have a beater knife with you. one you wouldn't mind chipping, bending, beating to bits. many japanese knives are designed for specific tasks. they have one for portioning /not really deboning poultry, for slicing meats, for boning out meats, etc. etc..... they even designed a knife just for whacking on things like fish heads, and bones. a yo-deba. not to be confused with a deba for filleting fish that's single bevel. a yo-deba or western deba is double bevel, very thick at the spine and is pretty much what the japanese would use as a bone chopper / cleaver type of deal. a western deba is also shaped more like a chef knife but way thicker.

=D

 

[franzb69]

with sharpening just check out japanese knife import's videos on sharpening. Jon Broida's a great guy.

there's also Mark Richmond's videos and Murray Carter's videos on youtube. both great guys. one's a knife reseller and murray's a japanese trained master bladesmith.


quick queston on the spine and choil of your kiritsuke, is it rounded? i hate it when knives dig into my skin coz the corners are so sharp.

 

[brewmeister bill]

sorry to say, no matter how great a chef is ramsay, his veg knife skills has gone down to crap. lol. but he can sure fillet a fish and debone a chicken as fast as most folks in the kitchen. and don't believe in anything he says about knives and how to sharpen them. i love the guy's cooking skills and palette, aside from the fact that he's a fellow southpaw but there are things that he does wrong, no matter how many michelin stars his restos have.
Not a fan of Flay, and i don't watch his shows.

I totally understand...same way I am about Oliver (not a huge Flay groupie for that matter). I couldn't think of any that have really impressed me on Veg lately...one or two on "Top Chef," but even that, *meh*. I follow a ton of Alton Brown, but he hasn't had anything lately that brought anything to mind (he IS the one, however, that got me interested in Shun in the first place, but I digress). For sharpening, I only do my pocket knives...I have a Lansky setup that works nicely, and I use on my paring and utility as well, But I haven't done the Henkels chef, and I am ABSOLUTELY not going to do the Shun at home...that will be worth the couple bucks to ship it once or twice a year to Shun for their 16* hone. I figure if I take what it would've cost me if I had paid for the knife and board (400 give or take) and apply that toward the sharpenings, it'll keep it closer to factory fresh....much fresher than my iffy skills could do.

i find that the middle part of the kiritsuke, or most japanese chef knives (similar profile) is that it's perfect for push cutting. the heel of the knife is great for starting of the draw cut for slicing. the tip is super great at fine work with shallots and such. and yes, your kiritsuke is cladded with stainless steel. so the knife is pretty much what i am looking for in a good all arounder.

YES! this is what I was getting at earlier..I think as I improve, my push cutting speed will probably be at or above where I was at with the Henkells. That tip is beautiful on shallots, garlic cloves...loving it.

try to play around with the shun and you might not wanna let it go after a while. Aogami is an awesome carbon steel. I have a Santoku in the same steel also cladded with stainless steel, an Aritsugu Kyoto. I love the knife to bits. gets insanely sharp, stays sharp super long, holds an anorexic angle and holds it well. It chips if you're not careful. But then anything north of 60RC will chip if you're not careful.
hopefully if you still have the knife in the next few weeks and if you decide to let it go shoot me a pm, by then i might have enough cash to take it off your hands. lol. i have a US address you can send it to, less trouble that way.

If the time comes and my decision goes that way, I'll discuss it with you before anyone else.

when having a japanese knife, you will ALWAYS want to have a beater knife with you. one you wouldn't mind chipping, bending, beating to bits. many japanese knives are designed for specific tasks. they have one for portioning /not really deboning poultry, for slicing meats, for boning out meats, etc. etc..... they even designed a knife just for whacking on things like fish heads, and bones. a yo-deba. not to be confused with a deba for filleting fish that's single bevel. a yo-deba or western deba is double bevel, very thick at the spine and is pretty much what the japanese would use as a bone chopper / cleaver type of deal. a western deba is also shaped more like a chef knife but way thicker.
**quick queston on the spine and choil of your kiritsuke, is it rounded? i hate it when knives dig into my skin coz the corners are so sharp.

I took a pic of the Kirit, the Henkells, and the "wife knife" (I do borrow occasionally for the santuku feel LOL). One of my favorite features of the Shun (seems like it's common in Japanese knives) is the hard case for storage. I keep my others on a magnetic rack, but I cant bring myself to sticking it up there, where anyone can use it to....ugh, who knows...cut a PBJ on a ceramic dish...<<shudder>>
I tried closeups, but without busting out the Canon Rebel with a macro, I can't get a clear shot. It does feel rounded, particularly when I alternate between that and the old knife. I know it is multitudes more comfortable during extended use, even with that size difference

 

[brewmeister bill]

Also, wanted to thank you, both Tbaggn and franzb69. Turned me onto a few resources to learn more about the japanese knives & uses as opposed to what I already used. And shared many of your own experience which made me feel a lil better that I'm not some idiot fresh off the veggie truck LOL.
It's why I consistently come back to this site before others when I have questions
(especially know that my carry knife & Chef knives are almost entirely Kershaw & Shun...and I love each and every one of them!

 

[Tbaggin]

No problemo! Gotta love kershaw!

 

[franzb69]

that kiritsuke has most japanese features down to a T. the only thing that any japanese knife with a wa handle (traditional japanese handle) shouldn't have is that bolster that shun has shaped into more looking like a ferule of a wa handle. many western / yo handled japanese knives have bolsters.

although that kiritsuke is lighter even compared to your henckels. it is still considered pretty heavy because of the said bolster and full tang. being that it's that light also makes that knife more agile and more comfortable than most western / european style knives.

i am only pointing this out because it's what really differentiates wa handles to most knives. without the bolster, the weight of the knife is more focused on the blade and between the bolster and where the edge begins. it also makes knives a lot lighter which is for many people a common misconception that the knife feels cheap because of it's light weight. many japanese knives have no bolster for the sole reason that it cuts down the weight and takes out stress on the hands and the wrist when it comes to prolonged use. most j knife afficionados would prefer a wa handle / traditional handle with a rat tail tang for this reason. the balance is kinda messed up though, takes a little getting used to as the balance on the knife is somewhere in between an inch or so after where the edge begins and the middle of the blade. but when you do get used to this, it makes a world of a difference. using a knife and prepping for hours and hours that's under 200grams feels like heaven compared to a western handled heavy blade that's more like 250-350grams, just because of that bolster and heavier handle.

i have two edc's btw that are also kershaw. bought them december last year. a skyline and a blur.

since you have a wooden chopping board, i wouldn't have to tell you that cutting surfaces make a huge difference in edge retention and chipping blades that are that thin like a kiritsuke. for most people an edge of a kiritsuke is near anorexic and scary to use as it would seem delicate. and as you use it, you will start thinking that it's not anywhere close to being delicate. it feels more like streamlined and tough. you will also discover that you can even take that knife up to even 12 degrees per side and it will perform remarkably well. but of course, the trade off with edge retention and becoming more chip prone due to the thinness. aogami takes a long lasting edge, especially compared to what shun uses on their other lines like VG10 which is chippy and does not have a long lasting edge when used by someone who does not know how to use it. the only thing that's delicate on that knife would be the tip.

their SG2 is pretty much the gold standard in super steels in stainless.

storage is also another thing, if you keep it in a drawer with the rest of the knives unsheathed and let it bang around with other stuff, it will chip like nobody's business. good thing that knife came with a saya. sheaths are a requirement for me with my knives. as i cook for a living, i need to be able to transport it without worry of cutting into my bag. and buying a saya for a kiritsuke usually means, a custom order which is more expensive than usual.

when you get into this kitchen knife hobby, you'll start wanting to sharpen your own knives. pocket knives and smaller knives will feel harder to sharpen when you've gotten used to sharpening knives of this size. it seems daunting at the beginning but when you need a sharp knife and you can't wait for shun's sharpening service to do it for you, you'll just have to do it yourself. nothing like the feeling of a knife you sharpened yourself. i know you know what i'm talking about. =D

specially that i live in a country when getting a shun and thinking about their free sharpening service and warranty is pretty much useless, i will have to sharpen them myself.