Qs: Ethics/Rules of copying designs

P

pgopinath

Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
81
I have a question for the knifemakers on this forum.

What are the rules/ethics related to asking one knifemaker (whose custom damascus work I admire) to execute a design from another knifemaker whose design I really admire? The maker whose designs I like does not do damascus work and certainly not some of the custom fabrications that I am considering.

Please note: I am not a maker, just a buyer/collector who want a few specific knives made in certain specific ways.

Thanks
Prabha
 
Here's my take.

I have been asked to make copies before. From my point of view I see asking for a copy of someone else's work as an insult. However, I absolutly do not believe the people asking for copies intended the request to be insulting.

From my perspective the collector was trying to take advantage of a lower priced maker. Generally, people who are looking for a copy do not want to spend the money or they do not want to wait for an authentic piece.

My feelings of a copy as an insult stem from the inference I made that the collector did not want a knife in my "style" (the knives requested were completely different from anything I've ever made) the collector wanted a "maker x" knife at my price without a "maker x" wait. I'd say my knives are pretty much run of the mill; nothing I make is original or indigenous, but I still see asking for a copy as insulting.

I felt that the collector didn't want anything to do with my work, only my prices. Maybe I'm just thin skinned, but, it seemed like I was being taken advantage of. It isn't my intent to whine or boo hoo, but it reads that way ;).

Secondly, I am a part time maker, and I completely refuse to take income from a full time maker. When someone asks me to make a copy I refer the collector to the actual maker. I would much rather see funds going to someone who relies on knife making for a living.

Oddly enough, I am friends with a few makers I have been asked to copy. There is no way I would feel comfortable taking money from a friend.

While I think there aren't great variances between any two makers; there's always a blade and a handle; I do think makers work hard to develop a style and it is not my place to capitalize on that hard work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be hypocritical for me not to point out that my work has been greatly influenced by several makers. However, I have never set out to take anyone's design as my own, but I have definitely appropriated certain aspects of many makers' knives.

I think there is a strong distinction between an outright copy and an influence. That certainly isn't to say there aren't generic blade styles or designs that everyone makes. There is a line that has to be drawn somewhere between generic and novel. I don't think there is anything wrong with making a Loveless style knife; that conclusion is based on the volumes of makers producing "Loveless drop points" who have been making them for twenty years. While I wouldn't make a Loveless drop point, I wouldn't be as insulted if someone asked. I think phrasing would even influence my decision; I would be open to my take on a Loveless drop point, but not an exact copy.

If I ever develop a style or am credited with developing one I would be honored if someone copied my designs, but don't ask me to copy a Bagwell ;) :).

The point of that long winded bitching and moaning is I am supposed to be studying for exams but I am really tired of it ;).

Matt
 
I am not a maker, but this is a subject that I have discussed with a few. To a man, they all stated that they would refuse to make a copy if they were asked.

There do seem to be a number of designs that making a copy of is considered completely acceptable. The designs of Bob Loveless, Bill Moran, William Scagel and Bo Randall come to mind.

I have contemplated asking a maker to make me a copy of a knife that if I order from the original maker will take three or four years to be delivered. The problem is that I just don't feel comfortable asking. I don't have a problem showing a maker a design that I like so that the maker will have a basic idea of what I am looking for, but I will not ask for a copy. Quite a few makers have asked me to send photos of knives that I like so they will know what designs I prefer.
 
I (knife nut, not maker) would never ask a maker to copy another's work. I do understand how a maker would be insulted by this, even if that were not the customer's intention. In that case, I guess that I would feel that the customer is, well, not the most sensitve person out there. One exception would be if I wanted a, say, Scagel-style knife, in which case I would approach someone who does this or similar work.

However, I see nothing wrong with asking for a knife to be made by 2 makers: One whose damascus that I prefer, the other whose style that I wanted for this particular knife. Of course, that would be easier if I had placed orders with both makers previously, so that they know that there is no issue of me not liking something by the maker. And if the 2 of them couldn't work together, well, too bad. That's their right.

Now that I am thinking about it, I really cannot for the life of me understand why someone would want a maker to copy another's style.
 
shaldag said:
Now that I am thinking about it, I really cannot for the life of me understand why someone would want a maker to copy another's style.
Click to expand...

There are a few reasons that I can think of. One is, as Prabha mentioned, that one maker has the style you want, but doesn't work in the materials that you want. Another is wait time. There are makers that are four or more years behind on orders and others that aren't taking orders at all. Price is another reason. An original Fisk knife will cost you a lot more than a copy will. One other reason that I have seen lately that actually makes sense to me is that some makers are untrustworthy. If you order a knife from them you are not likely to get it, even if you have prepaid for it.
 
I am sorry if I conveyed the impression that I was trying to "steal" a particular maker's designs, go the cheap route, or pick a maker based on schedule etc.

I have a very practical problem. There is a maker (A) on this forum who makes the most innovative and attractive damascus stock I have seen - in my humble and very limited opinion. I am also extremely fond of the Tops Tracker design - which I understand and know has been copied/interpreted/inspired several other makers on this forum. It appeals to me visceraly even though I have no idea what I would use it for. In some cases art defies logic.

None of the folks that make variations of the Tracker make it in the specific kinds of damascus that maker A has fabricated. I would like to take the basic Tracker design with some of my own design mods and request maker A to make it for me in a damascus of my choosing.

I am willing to wait as long as it takes (within reason) and to pay the price necessary to essentially have a knife in a design I like and in the materials I desire. To me such a knife would be an excellent artistic interpretation of the original design with no disrespect intended to the original designer of the Tracker - whoever that may be.

It is for precisely the reasons that you all have brought up that I raised the question in this particular venue. I would hate to approach makers I respect and give unintended offense.

Hope that helps
regards
Prabha
 
pgopinath said:
I am sorry if I conveyed the impression that I was trying to "steal" a particular maker's designs, go the cheap route, or pick a maker based on schedule etc.
Click to expand...

You did not. My reasons given were in general only (except for the one referenced to you).
 
I don't think you're stealing a maker's design. I hope I didn't imply that or imply that you are being insulting in any way. I was just relaying my side of the story.

I understand your situation and I think you should go for the project, it sounds like the maker's are on board too.

Good luck with the knife.

Matt
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I am not a maker, but this is a subject that I have discussed with a few. To a man, they all stated that they would refuse to make a copy if they were asked.

There do seem to be a number of designs that making a copy of is considered completely acceptable. The designs of Bob Loveless, Bill Moran, William Scagel and Bo Randall come to mind.

I have contemplated asking a maker to make me a copy of a knife that if I order from the original maker will take three or four years to be delivered. The problem is that I just don't feel comfortable asking. I don't have a problem showing a maker a design that I like so that the maker will have a basic idea of what I am looking for, but I will not ask for a copy. Quite a few makers have asked me to send photos of knives that I like so they will know what designs I prefer.
Click to expand...

i think i'm with the majority on this - asking for a copy of someone else's design is not something i would do, and not fair to either bladesmith. that said, there are designs i've seen from makers who are retired, etc (in one case just horribly unreliable) that i would like to get but am not able to.

even in these cases though i wouldn't ask for a copy, but find someone whose work shares the same sensibilities then comission that type of piece and let the maker come up with his own interpertation of the style.

i'd even be uncomfortable asking a maker to copy their own work honestly. after all, who wants to do the same thing over and over again - jerry hossom just alluded to that in a recent post. what i prefer to do is to just tell a smith what i've liked in their previous work and let them come up with whatever they want. i've never been disappointed going this route.
 
I think the best approach for me would be to ask the maker with the damascus patterns I like to make me a knife inspired by a design that I have seen. I would certainly like to see an individual interpretation of a particular aesthetic.

Thanks all; this has helped a lot.

Regards
Prabha
 
Under special curcumstances I would say it could be ok.

There is a signature design that a maker has stopped making forever, so I am going to ask if I can comission another maker to make the same design. I fully believe that the original maker will allow it to be done.

I just need to figure out who can do it right!
 
In the case of liking one maker's damascus and another's design, couldn't you contact both and see if one would make a damascus billet, or have one make the blade and if the other would finish it? It would be complicated and iffy, but then you're not stepping on anybody's toes.
 
I don't think this is an issue of copying at all.

Like Matt pointed out... somebody trying to get Maker A's style with maker X's price is quite insulting.

But that's not what you are talking about here.

I would ask the damascus maker to make the billet of steel for you, and pay him his asking price, then send that to the other makers to have the blade made.

It would work out well for all involved that way :)
-Nick-

http//www.wheelerknives.com
 
pgopinath said:
The maker whose designs I like does not do damascus work and certainly not some of the custom fabrications that I am considering.
Click to expand...

What are the custom fabrications that you speak of?
 
Bump, I was just thinking about this. What if it comes down to a difference of the original maker using tool steel//stainless or stock removal//forging and you want the other method or materials? I'm sure there could be a couple tweaks to handle shape or materials or blade length thrown in since it's a custom anyway.
 
hardheart said:
What if it comes down to a difference of the original maker using tool steel//stainless or stock removal//forging and you want the other method or materials? I'm sure there could be a couple tweaks to handle shape or materials or blade length thrown in since it's a custom anyway.
Click to expand...

I think the original maker should be contacted and asked if there was a problem with having another maker do his design. Explain the situation as pertains to why you want this to be done. If the original maker has a problem, then don't do it.

If enough tweaks are done to the original design that it is not easily recognized in the new knife, then don't worry about it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top