Quenchant Discussion?

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Dec 27, 2001
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I am confused about quenchants. Now I know everyone here will tell me to buy Texaco Type A and forget about everything else. What I'm really looking for is a little of the "how it works". For example, what is meant by a faster or slower oil? My understanding is the a thicker oil brings the temp of the steel down faster, right? Somewhere in another forum, someone wrote something to the effect of "Don't even get me started on Canola Oil" well that's what I use, it seems to be working. What's the problem? Also, "interrupted quench" when, why, how, which steels? The quenchants I've heard of commonly include peanut, olive, mineral oil, ATF, or used motor oil. Anyone have any thoughts on what there are really good for? Thanks to anyone who can make my tiny brain understand...
 
Whit - RUN NOW WHILE YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE!!!
This thread will get more opinions than asking which movie star is the sexiest (Angelina Jolie).Everybody uses a different quench.There are volumes written on the subject.Tempers flare and blood boils when someone bad mouths another's preferred dunkin' sauce.
A quenchant's job is to lower the temperature at a rate to end up with the steel mix desired.It will vary with the steel and desired hardening result.A general medium quench like Texaco A ,ATF,used motor oil,.... will do most steels to an acceptable result.Many makers use three or four different quenchants.The most common are
Air
Water
Brine
Light oil (canola,olive, fast quench)
Medium oil
Heavy oil - This includes greases,and Mark Williams mystery sludge.

Contrary to legend and on-line stories,quenching a blade in the belly of a eunuch is a poor quench.
Temperature of the quench is very important,too.
Stacy
 
OK, before it gets too out of control then.

Can someone describe the Light/ Medium/ Heavy Oils to me. Pros and Cons I guess is what I'm asking for. Thanks.
 
C'mon now...give the guy a straight answer...you gotta have at least 4 chickens...a magnet...seven black candles and a Ouija Board for quenchant questions...
 
Anyone know where I can buy Texaco Type A and have it shipped overseas (about a gallon)?
 
ZDP...This ain't your thread...and your post is OT....buying type A ain't the problem...shipping it overseas is...Good luck...

BTW~ how did Ed Fowler post under your handle the other day?

Shane
 
whit, stay with your canola oil.i assume you are a newbie like me,i've had good results with 0-1 and 1095,and it works for me.i'm no expert, but i will give you a straight answer.
 
Folks had to expect me to put my nose it this one, they probably also expected me to be my typically verbose self, so here we go ;) :

From all the great opposition among bladesmiths to commercial quenchants I have encountered in my travels and talks, I am convinced that the quenching process is profoundly more complicated than most knifemakers understand (which is too bad since it is the most critical moments in the creation of a knife). The greatest error most folks make in judging a quenchant is by simply asking how fast can it cool things. If this is all that mattered, why not just use brine and detergent for everything?

There are three distinct phases to a quench (there actually is a fourth but it can be irrelevant to this conversation) and each of those stages must be taken into consideration for what you are trying to do with the steel.

You quench you blade into a liquid quench medium and immediately you go into the first phase – The vapor jacket/blanket phase. The 1400F+ steel will immediately bring any liquid it contacts to its vapor point, forming a insulating jacket of gas all around the blade. This very undesirable insulating effect happens to coincide with a cooling range in the steel that is most critical to cool the fastest if you want to fully harden the blade. There are a few ways to defeat the vapor jacket, the first being the chemistry of the liquid itself. You want a liquid that has the highest boiling point and vapor point, so that less of ti will go into gas. You may also want to mess around with its surface tension qualities so that the jackets breaks up easier. One way to physically beat the jacket is Agitation, that is physically force fresh liquid into contact with the blade.

In just a short while the blade will cool enough for the vapor jacket to become unstable, as liquid intermittently makes contact with the hot steel, a violent boiling begins- The vapor collapse phase . This stage results in very rapid, and, unfortunately, very uneven cooling of the steel. This is when scale and other debris can be blown off the surface from the violent mini explosions of gas.

Anyone putting hot steel in water will notice how when it initially enters there is a calm before the storm (the vapor jacket phase) then as the water bites the steel there will be the growling, hissing, boil (the vapor collapse phase), and then there will be a trailing off to the final stage- The liquid cooling phase. This is the point where the steel is in complete contact with the liquid and the heat extraction via conduction and convection is entirely unhindered. It is also the part that coincides with the formation of martensite, so the less uneven stress, the better.

Let’s just take a look at good old water, and examine its qualities. It has a very low vapor point (212F.) so as soon as your blade goes in, you have a huge vapor jacket problem, and when this jacket collapses, the low boiling point results in an incredibly violent and uneven cooling. When you reach Ms the cooling is still very quick, in fact, the jacket is still collapsing through at least half of martensite formation. There should be little wonder that water quenching often results in warped and cracked blades.

The ideal quench would form no vapor at all, cool incredibly fast until Ms (martensite start) is reached and then cool very gently and evenly. Science is still working on it for every type of steel, but I can confidently say that they have come darned close and it is readily available.

Now lets look at some other considerations. Aside from vapor points some liquids have better thermal extraction rates than others. Some can handle being scorched with hot steel over and over again much better. Thermal breakdown and oxidation become considerations in the oil mediums. What’s in it? Will it stain or discolor your steel? Will it stain or discolor your lungs? Will it burst into violent flames and put you in the hospital as soon as you put steel to it? How expensive is it to use?

Commercial quench oils take all of this into consideration (at least the good ones do) and I highly recommend them. I have worked with plenty of home made concoctions before I quit playing the eccentric alchemist/bladesmith role and just bought some good quench oil, and there simply is no comparison. All of my Rockwell numbers evened out to a very predictably high range, and my next batch of quench oil will be just the same as the last, without trying to figure out what I all mixed in that winner potion. My blades came out very clean, I could even watch the entire cooling process below the perfectly clear amber liquid. Interrupted quenching for a martempering effect became so much easier. It is safe to say that I am sold.

Most of the home made quenches that I have played with and have heard described, tend to deal with distortion in a far too simplistic and tragic way- just slow down the cooling:( This invariably results in the formation of fine pearlite, a condition that results in the standard line “my blades seem O.K. so my quench is good enough”. Fine pearlite can be pretty darned hard to detect without a microscope and can seem quite hard- but it is not martensite and it will not perform at the same level as it. And with the new standard of knife performance being how well it bends, blades with extra pearlite in them really shine, it is really too bad when you think about it.
 
whit,ignore my last post.listen to kevin.he's probably forgot more than i'll ever know.baled me out a time or two.thanks kevin
 
Don't get me wrong Tom, I was already typing my post when you posted and I think you have a good point if a person just wants to make a few knives for fun, I wished I could just just make them for the pure fun of it :( I miss those days. But if you are going to try to make a business of it you owe it to your customer to use the best tools, and you certainly owe it to yourself to make the process as worry free and efficeint as possible.

If, you just want to make a couple of carvers for the kids and 5 gallons of canola oil is just around the corner for $50 (based on the $2.50/quart my wife just payed), that could very well outweigh the shipping or travel costs (particularly with gas these days) to get your hands on the 5 gallons of quench oil for $35 . Cost versus convenience has to come into play I guess. ;)
 
Whit said:
...For example, what is meant by a faster or slower oil? My understanding is the a thicker oil brings the temp of the steel down faster, right?...

:o Sorry, I didn't even bother to look at the topic setting questions, I do that too often.. how rude :( .

Whit, a faster oil is capable of a higher thermal extraction rate, i.e. it can cool faster. Your understanding of thicker oil=faster is reversed from the real case. The less viscosity the quicker the quench, due to convection. This is why it is so important to pre-heat your oil for best results. But, as I mentioned in my tome above, there are many more factors dealing with cooling than just viscosity (e.g. conduction is pretty good for cooling as well ;)). Parks#50 is so thin that it barely feels like oil, will actually freeze like water, and it is the fastest oil I have ever seen.
 
shane justice said:
ZDP...This ain't your thread...and your post is OT....buying type A ain't the problem...shipping it overseas is...Good luck...

BTW~ how did Ed Fowler post under your handle the other day?

Shane

I was using his PC to access BF and forgot to log out. Not likely to happen again soon, as I am now on the other side of the planet. But then that really OT.
 
ZDP- SEE what I mean!
Kevin is giving you a good explanation.If you can, check with a spring making shop or a machine shop,they may sell you 5 gallons(20-25L) of a good quenchant like Texaco A.If not stick with canola or olive oil.
The important points are:
Have enough quenchant to properly cool the blade - at least 4" (10cm)in all directions around the blade (3-5 gallons,20-25L)
Heat the oil to 130-140F(55-60C) degrees.(build a heated,recirculating tank if you really want good quenching)
LEARN HOW TO QUENCH - study the time/temperature curves of the steels you are working with.Learn the metallurgy that is happening in the steel as it crystallizes.Experiment with different quenching styles until you find one that you can master.
STEEL IS LIKE A WOMAN - ALL SEEM SIMILAR ON THE OUTSIDE,BUT THEY NEED TO BE TREATED AS INDIVIDUALS,AND WILL REACT DIFFERENTLY TO THINGS. (Steel is easier to understand)
Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
...STEEL IS LIKE A WOMAN - ALL SEEM SIMILAR ON THE OUTSIDE,BUT THEY NEED TO BE TREATED AS INDIVIDUALS,AND WILL REACT DIFFERENTLY TO THINGS. (Steel is easier to understand)...


AMEN! Heck, each individual blade can have its own unique ornery tendacies, even if made from the same bar of steel :( . Figuring this out, is probably what we really get paid for, in the long run ;)
 
Kevin & Stacy,

Thanks for the "straight answers", or as close as is possible on a topic like this. Kevin, if memory serves me, you were the one who made the canola oil comment in my original post, so I'm glad you chimed in!

One follow up. Why is it that Pearlite would be forming in my blades quenched in Canola, as opposed to Martensite? Is it simply the rate of cooling? You mentioned something about distortion? Is that due to how light, or "fast" the oil is?

I know at some point you'll make my head spin again and I'll vow to take about 6 years of Metallurgy courses....but we are all seeking the perfect knife, right?? Thanks for the info.

Ryan
 
Good stuff Kevin...

But what about the chickens? do they help or not?

ZDP ~Did you get what Kevin is saying?

Shane
 
As steel cools it changes the crystal structure,depending on how fast it cools,and what temperature it starts and stops at.The mix goes from austinite,through bainite and pearlite,and ends up with martensite.Depending on where in the time/temperature curve it hits crystalization,the mix may have more pearlite than desired.If it stops in the bainite,the blade won't be hard.The quenchant type and its temperature are the control for most of this curve.After quench the tempering adjusts the mix to a more stable blend (oversimplified).
 
shane justice said:
Good stuff Kevin...

But what about the chickens? do they help or not?


Shane


This all depends on whether or not they're virgin chickens with red hair! :eek: :D
 
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