Quenching Swords

To name a few, the furnace is too short, obviously, they don't heat treat the tang
and the "partial" quenching process is just ...
It seems like they can't decide whether to quench or not.
 
The interrupted quench is pretty standard for water hardening. It reduces the chance that the blade will break.

- Chris
 
Also, a short forge is traditional and typical for modern smiths, too. The tang isn't normally hardened.

- Chris
 
Hesparus said:
The interrupted quench is pretty standard for water hardening. It reduces the chance that the blade will break.

- Chris
Click to expand...

It also reduces the amount of curvature on the blade, and traditionally if done correctly means less effort (or even a requirement) for tempering which keeps the "activity" count higher. Some people also knock the clay off during the interruption, so they don't have to temper. Interrupted quench is also useful for oil quench to stop the tip dropping and creating a recurve. Not 100% sure why oil quench puts a different bend on clayed blades, but I don't like oil formed hamons as they tend to come out "muddy". Not such an issue if acid etched, but decidedly unsatisfactory with traditional polishing.

PS. An unhardened tang means the blade is less likely to go ping leaving you defending yourself with just a handle.
 
Yes, it reduces the chance of breaking but it also means lower hardness of the blade.

This means that they are raising the percent of "successful" heat treatments on account of quality ?

Isn't breaking during quenching a consequence of some error during forging ?

Short forge is standard nowadays but it is made for knifes, not swords.
It makes quite a difference in temperature in the middle and at the ends of the sword.
Overheating some parts or underheating others.

"Soaking time" is what most knifemakers today lack
and this forge is not allowing it or makes it difficult to perform/achieve.

Japanese heat and quench the tang too.

I find the quenching by poking movement odd.

The second blade warped and perhaps has some defect, so ...


The amount of curvature is/should be determined by the clay setup.
I like big curvatures.

No need for tempering ?
If you say so ...

PS. For the ping there is tempering.
 
Valar God said:
Yes, it reduces the chance of breaking but it also means lower hardness of the blade.

This means that they are raising the percent of "successful" heat treatments on account of quality ?
Click to expand...

Not sure how much you understand about tempering and swords and all, but from this comment it seems to me very much like you're laboring under some serious misapprehensions. I've always learned that hardness is not the be-all and the end-all, especially for swords. Harder SWORDS generally break all too easily. You WANT lower hardness for a sword, generally low to mid RC, unlike a knife.

I'd certainly be curious to hear about your blacksmithing experiences. It's very easy to second guess other people from your keyboard, and I'd prefer not to fall into that. You may know something that I don't, and that most smiths don't. But I can't say as how I would be interested in buying a sword that had a very hard temper. And I don't think that lower hardness can at all be equated with quality. The rest of your comments seem perfectly legitimate, but that first part just doesn't make any sense to me. Could you explain further?
 
Certainly.

Lower hardness is achieved with longer tempering.

You can't achieve lower hardness with bad quenching.

You can, in a way, but the structure of steel would not be as it should be.

You must heat to a proper temperature, equally throughout the blade,
then keep that temperature for a certain amount of time
(some steels require 20 min or more, while people usually heat until demagnetizm)
then quench properly, regardless of the wanted hardness
then temper at least once, or more, till wanted hardness.

You are not supposed to, nor it is possible, to achieve proper STRUCTURE or hardness by only quenching.

Don't underestimate the serious misapprehension of inexperienced blacksmiths.

I admit, I haven't said thing properly, previously.

Cheers.


EDIT: In a way, I said all of this previously when I have said: "For the ping there is tempering"
As for the high hardness, isn't the cutting edge supposed to have high hardness ?
What is it with differential treatment then ?
 
Valar God said:
Certainly.

Lower hardness is achieved with longer tempering.

You can't achieve lower hardness with bad quenching.

You can, in a way, but the structure of steel would not be as it should be.

You must heat to a proper temperature, equally throughout the blade,
then keep that temperature for a certain amount of time
(some steels require 20 min or more, while people usually heat until demagnetizm)
then quench properly, regardless of the wanted hardness
then temper at least once, or more, till wanted hardness.

You are not supposed to, nor it is possible, to achieve proper STRUCTURE or hardness by only quenching.

Don't underestimate the serious misapprehension of inexperienced blacksmiths.

I admit, I haven't said thing properly, previously.

Cheers.


EDIT: In a way, I said all of this previously when I have said: "For the ping there is tempering"
As for the high hardness, isn't the cutting edge supposed to have high hardness ?
What is it with differential treatment then ?
Click to expand...

Just wondering how many swords you have made?
 
1966c10 said:
Actually, it sounds like he understands a great deal about tempering and swords. Also his experience has nothing to do with whether or not he is correct. For example you seem to have experience blacksmithing, but don’t seem to understand a great deal about about tempering and swords. The whole point of a differentially hardened sword is that you CAN have high edge hardness. It gives you the stable edge of a high HRC blade but without the overall sword being brittle. He also seems to be the only one in this thread that realizes that HRC is controlled by tempering and steel type, not quenching.
Click to expand...

Not what I was saying. I was saying that I don't know what his background is, so I don't want to second guess him without hearing more of his reasoning. Most of what he said I agreed with, except for the part where he seemed to imply that lower RC somehow meant lower quality, which hasn't been my experience. My experience blacksmithing is not extensive, hence why I asked him for a little more detail, which he was kind enough to provide. I know far more about sword use than I do about the process of actually making one, at least, when it comes to forging and tempering. But, I'm always up for learning more.

I do understand differential temper, but his initial comment that I was questioning didn't mention that. It just referred to lower hardness of the blade, which is generally just fine. If he'd said something more like "lower hardness of the edge," or something, that would have made more sense.

If I were trying to be critical, it would sound more like this: "Perhaps you should actually read ALL of what I wrote before chiming in and putting words in my mouth. I asked for a bit more information so I could further understand another member's rationale for a particular comment, and got it." There's a difference between that, and saying: "On the surface, it sounds like you are saying something very different from what I usually understand. I'd like to avoid second-guessing you without knowing your background, so could you explain your reasoning further." The experience, as you say, has nothing to do with whether he's correct. It has everything to do with my willingness to second guess someone. For instance, I'd second guess the heck out of a mall ninja who was trying to give pointers on sword use. If I know nothing about someone, I'd rather give them the benefit of the doubt and get some more explanation so I can be on the same page.
 
1966c10 said:
"Differential Tempering" is an unrelated process to what's being discussed here.
Click to expand...

1966c10 said:
The whole point of a differentially hardened sword is that you CAN have high edge hardness.
Click to expand...

I only brought it up because you did. Do you see me mentioning differential temper prior to your butting in? This whole conversation had nothing to do with you. You chose to butt in, and don't even have the simple courtesy to read what's right in front of your face. I at least know my limitations. You clearly do not. You can use big words to disguise your ignorance, but the simple fact of the matter is that the irrelevance came from your post, not mine. If there's an argument ad hominem, it's in your statement, not mine.

Yet again, you fail to actually read and understand. His experience is relevant to me in that it helps me know what I can take for granted without sufficient explanation. Would you take the word of some random person over the internet, failing enough explanation for you to understand what they're talking about? If so, you're even more of a fool (or a troll) than you currently appear. It obviously wasn't clear in his first explanation, and I wasn't the only one to think so. He was kind enough to provide some further explanation that helped me better understand what he meant. Or are you trying to disagree with the statement that lower HRC is not necessarily bad for a sword blade? Because that was my issue with the initial comment, and when someone refers to the BLADE, I generally think that they are talking about the blade (amazing as that might seem to you), rather than the edge, which is hardly the whole blade whatsoever. It's an easy misunderstanding to make when one isn't clear about what they mean. I was very clear about what I meant. I would not buy a sword with a very hard temper. Many of the very experienced smiths in the makers section prefer to draw the temper back, rather than edge quench, for instance. Methods change.

In fact, you may note that this isn't the first time in this thread that someone has asked Valar to explain a comment further. I did not intend my comment to challenge his experience. In fact, I specifically pointed out that I don't know it, and it's easy to second-guess someone over the internet. I'm not even the only person to remark on that, and I didn't even ask how many swords he's made. He's made a bunch of comments that disagree with the wisdom of many makers. I've seen some excellent blades made in this fashion that have undergone a lot of abuse. Add to that the fact that both you and he are relative unknowns around here, and experience has quite a bit to do with it.

Whether you like it or not, experience and reputation have a lot to do with someone's credibility on the forums, and that comes from making intelligent comments that everyone can understand. Valar started out by saying that he strongly disagreed with the process, but offered little else in the way of explanation. That's hardly confidence-inspiring. At least he's actually been good enough to politely explain what he meant when someone has a question. What are YOU offering here besides trolling?
 
differential tempering =/= differential hardening

Differential tempering process does exist
but it has nothing to do with differential hardening process.

Tempering =/= hardening

It's the basics.
 
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