Question about damascus

i think that the ancient Damascus blades were a kind of superdooper steel. apparantly (from guff i've read), the forging process resulted in carbon nanotubes or similar being formed within the steel, making it legendary for strength.

however, as i understand it (and please correct me if i'm wrong), the secrets of "real" Damascus steel have been lost.

i've heard that some Russians found a forging technique which led to some very strong Damascus-like steel in the mid 19th century.

is it better or worse than, for example, laminated VG-10? i don't know. the only way to really find out would be to get a Damascus blade and a Lam VG-10 blade, swing them at each other and see which one breaks first (not something i'm in a financial position to even contemplate).

i'm sure some more knowledgable members than me will chime in.
 
sambo. said:
i think that the ancient Damascus blades were a kind of superdooper steel. apparantly (from guff i've read), the forging process resulted in carbon nanotubes or similar being formed within the steel, making it legendary for strength.

however, as i understand it (and please correct me if i'm wrong), the secrets of "real" Damascus steel have been lost.

i've heard that some Russians found a forging technique which led to some very strong Damascus-like steel in the mid 19th century.

is it better or worse than, for example, laminated VG-10? i don't know. the only way to really find out would be to get a Damascus blade and a Lam VG-10 blade, swing them at each other and see which one breaks first (not something i'm in a financial position to even contemplate).

i'm sure some more knowledgable members than me will chime in.
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I'm not too sure about the whole carbon-nano tube theory. Back then, damascus steel was, from what I understand, was the best, or easiest way to make steel swords. Think about it, before damascus steel, they had either iron or bronze to compare with, so the claims from back then are somewhat scewed if you try to think about them with a modern steel-alloys mindset.
 
Wootz/bulat is being made again today, by some smiths. That is the old watered crucible steel that would have been damascus steel way back when :). It is also approximated by taking some modern alloys and doing extended thermal cycling. Carbide banding and segregation are avoided in modern industry, but have effects on edge-holding that some seem to desire. Modern damascus is pattern welded steel, generally made from mixing modern alloys. Both are sold by makers right here on Bladeforums.
 
I had (all too briefly) a damascus FB knife, made in the Middle East. It was easy to make it astonishingly sharp.

Need more knives for research.
 
From what I've read, no form of ancient pattern welded steel (which is the correct name for "Damascus") is equal to modern steels being made today. Because of the poor qualities of raw materials, it was necessary to beat the impurities out of the forged materials and layering for flexibility. The resulting patterning happens to be a byproduct of the process.

If you're comparing two steel types from the same era, then I would think the Damascus steel would be the stronger blade. I'm sure some were better than others depending on the skill of the smith and raw materials.
 
There have always been some pretty extravagant claims made for Damascus/Wootz steel....IIRC, a number of years ago, someone was trying to market knives made from the main gun barrels of WWII German tanks ("LionSteel" ? or something like that ?), supposedly forged from some super-grade of Damascus....anybody else recall that ?
 
I've heard that it's more like back waaaay long ago the quality of steel is questionable. Homogeneous (consistancy of the material) and purity is questionable. Some guy/guys long ago decided to fold metal a lot of times to sorta even it out. Like kneading dough or making Chinese noodles :) That way the homogeneity (is there such a word?) and the relevant purity (as in no localized concentration but more spread out) is improved.

I saw this on the Discovery channel where Japanese sword makers folded steel to enable the best out of it. Other advantages (apart from my favorite : aesthetics) is that cracks do not propagate so easily and cracks sorta get cut short due to the layers.

Nowadays the improvement in steel quality and technology (like particle metallurgy) enables a more consistent and reliable quality steel. The benefits of damascus are lesser than in previous times. Often times it is just as good (or even better) to just forge it instead of making damascus or perhaps just to simply grind the stock. Heat treating became the deciding factor in most occasions.

Other advantages (unsure if true, can't seem to see it in my damascus) are the serration type edges one obtained from the different hardness and the improved bending ability (I'm not sure, chime in sword owners :)).

Hope this helps. All I've written so far is from what obtained from Bladeforums, the internet and TV. I'm by no means an expert and happy to help however I can.
 
I've read (I'm no expert on this) that wootz traveled with itinerant metal workers from India to the Middle East. In the Middle East Indian wootz was mixed with local steel and in Damascus a super steel (for its time) was created. Specifics of the metalworking techniques are lost, but for its time Damascus steel reached legendary proportions, especially when compared with European knives and swords brought to the Mid East during the crusades. A few interesting links:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html

http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancientweapons/a/damascus_steel.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

The "super steels" of today are likely superior to ancient Damascus steel. Most of the so-called Damascus steel sold today is pattern welded and not the same as ancient Damascus steel. It is simply called Damascus because the patterns are reminiscent of the Ancient Damascus steels.
 
This seems like the appropriate thread to throw out a question I have been curious about for a while...

Since everyone says that modern steels have the advantage of being pure, what would happen if you made damascus out of modern super steels? More importantly, would there be an advantage in the layering? Would it be similar to a laminated blade, but somehow better?
 
The Government said:
This seems like the appropriate thread to throw out a question I have been curious about for a while...

Since everyone says that modern steels have the advantage of being pure, what would happen if you made damascus out of modern super steels? More importantly, would there be an advantage in the layering? Would it be similar to a laminated blade, but somehow better?
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I honestly see the benefit of laminated steels (or aka San Mai) but not really for damascus except for aesthetics. In the case of San mai/laminated steels, there is a clear benefit of the more corrosion resistant and tougher outer layer and with a harder and more edge holding core. Not necessarily in these combination of benefits but you get the picture I hope.

In the case of damascus, unless it is proven that the layering effect does stop cracks from propagating, I'm unsure if it's an advantage or not. Also in damascus you have to see what are the combination. There is almost limitless possibilities and different combination have different features.
 
for The Government, a product called stamascus which is laminated stainless steel has been on market for a while. quite a few custom makers like it since you get the layered appearance without the worry of rust. do'nt know how it performs but some of our members can probably inform us.
 
Cotherion said:
I honestly see the benefit of laminated steels (or aka San Mai) but not really for damascus except for aesthetics. In the case of San mai/laminated steels, there is a clear benefit of the more corrosion resistant and tougher outer layer and with a harder and more edge holding core. Not necessarily in these combination of benefits but you get the picture I hope.

In the case of damascus, unless it is proven that the layering effect does stop cracks from propagating, I'm unsure if it's an advantage or not. Also in damascus you have to see what are the combination. There is almost limitless possibilities and different combination have different features.
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For examples of that check Fallkniven and several Cold Steel knives.

The Mcusta damascus knives are also damascus sides with VG-10 cores (I think).
 
A century or so ago, gun barrels were also made of Damascus steel. Folded around a mandrel and hammer/forge welded.

One, at least, of the earlier "Damascus" steels was made by forge welding a strip of steel and a strip of pure iron, then folding it and reforging numerous times until you had several hundred layers of iron and steel. This allegedly gave the blade good ease of sharpening, while maintaining good strength and edge retention.

Whether or not this process has any advantages over today's better quality single steels is open to debate.

Some knives, especially Japanese kitchen knives use a laminating process with a top end steel like VG10 in the center of numerous folds of a lower end steel such as 420JC. This protects the VG10 from impact, and allows it to be hardened well beyond the capabilities of a regular VG10 blade.

An old time Damascus blade would have an even number of layers, since each time it was folded, the number of layers doubled. A modern Japanese laminate will have an odd number of layers, because of the insertion of the "core."
 
One aspect to consider is that damascus made of mixed steel will wear unevenly, and on microscopic lever the edge will become a lot more serrated.
That and the steel can be a problem to sharpen because of the layering.
 
Ben Dover said:
A century or so ago, gun barrels were also made of Damascus steel. Folded around a mandrel and hammer/forge welded.

One, at least, of the earlier "Damascus" steels was made by forge welding a strip of steel and a strip of pure iron, then folding it and reforging numerous times until you had several hundred layers of iron and steel. This allegedly gave the blade good ease of sharpening, while maintaining good strength and edge retention.

Whether or not this process has any advantages over today's better quality single steels is open to debate.

Some knives, especially Japanese kitchen knives use a laminating process with a top end steel like VG10 in the center of numerous folds of a lower end steel such as 420JC. This protects the VG10 from impact, and allows it to be hardened well beyond the capabilities of a regular VG10 blade.

An old time Damascus blade would have an even number of layers, since each time it was folded, the number of layers doubled. A modern Japanese laminate will have an odd number of layers, because of the insertion of the "core."
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Interesting, didn't know that little fact about the VG-10 being able to be hardened more cause of the laminate 420JC surrounding it. Thanks.

I always though the Japanese laminated the core (with damascus sometimes) is just to imitate the japanese sword's look. Now I'm unsure. I own a Japanese cooking knife and I have to say the aesthetics is mighty fine but I'm unsure if the VG-10 core is harder than for my other VG-10 uncladded knives.

By the way, hope you don't mind me asking but is that your real name and if so I'm sorry :)
 
Yes my name really is Benjamin Julius Dover. My mother's maiden name was Rachel Benjamin, and I was named after my maternal grandfather, Julius Benjamin. :)

I don't really know why the Japanese use the "clad" core method rather than the pure folded method, or if perhaps you're correct that they use laminates to maintain the "Katana" mystique. :confused:

I've found this subject intriguing, so I spoke with a colleague over in metallurgy. He's had the opportunity to examine and test several fragments of sword blades unearthed in Turkey, Syria, and Spain.

He confirmed what I had previously read concerning the mixture of pure iron and steel, and the folding process resulting in an even number of layers for the metals.

Therefore, I suppose it would be somewhat of a misnomer to refer to today's laminated steels as "Damascus" since the laminates are both steel, and there is no pure iron in the mixture, although this reference seems to be a fairly common practice in Japan.

At any rate, it's quite a fascinating subject to study, and I hope to have the time to do more research on it in the future. :p
 
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