Question about factory edges.

akula83

akula83

Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
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I was wondering why my (new) traditional knives have all come with a duller "toothy"edge out of the box. I am relatively new to collecting traditional slipjoints, and my purchases from Case, Queen, and new old stock Camillus all seem like they could have been honed by the same person. Do these carbon blades generally come with just a working edge at best? they do slice paper but are no where near the razor sharp edges of my other folders, maybe they just don't spend a lot of time on the process. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Thanks.
 
Most factory knives (in USA at least) come with bevels cut with a fairly coarse wheel or, in some cases, belt and they generally do not hone the wire edge off of the blade. In my experience. And, it's one of my pet peeves. After all, the purpose of a knife is to cut and it should come sharp enough; I am not real happy when I have to finish the knife making process after I receive it.

If you are collecting knives, it would not be appropriate for you to sharpen them; it will affect their collector value.

If you are going to carry and use them, you will find that you will have to finish honing the edge(s) and possibly even reprofiling the edge on a significant number of new knives.

Even though it is a pet peeve, I still buy new knives from the folks that apparently know how to make them, but not sharpen them. I must be nuts.


Ed J
 
It's not just the carbon steel blades, it happens with the stainless steel ones too. The various slipjoint manufacturers seem to put less effort into sharpening their knives compared to their modern contemporaries. Who knows why? I have a theory though. Slipjoints are an old design, and the manufacturers are set in their ways. During the slipjoint's heyday, a man was expected to carry a knife. He was also expected to know how to sharpen one. Knowing this I think the slipjoint manufacturers performed only the most basic of sharpening jobs, since they knew that the end user was going to hone his knife and put the edge that he wanted on it anyways. It's a practice that remains to this day.

- Christian
 
Yep, it is true. Many, maybe even most, USA made Traditional style folders have very poor edge grinds and often uneven (side to side) primary grinds. There are exceptions. GEC knives are usually quite good.
And most of the current Traditional style folders made in China arrive with super sharp edges.
roland
 
I agree with Christian. On the old days people could sharpen their knives easily themself. The carbon steel or the more modern stainless steels (440C, 420HC) are easier to sharpen than the modern steels (S30V, 154CM etc.), imo.

EDIT:
Not only american traditional knives come out not very sharp. German knives are somtimes the same. The new ebony F. Hartkopf, Solingen I bought some weeks ago came with a poor edge and had to be sharpened and stroped for getting the edge I like to see on my knives (not razorsharp, but a good working edge).

Kind regards
Andi
 
As with most 'modern' production practices, the factory edge on most mass-produced knives is probably the result of 'what produces the minimally-acceptable level of sharpness (by the manufacturer's view) the fastest, and at the least cost'. Somewhere along the line, many seem to have arrived at something in the ballpark of a 120-grit belt. Most manufacturers are going to look for ways to do it, which minimize wear & tear on the tools needed to produce it.

I don't worry much about factory edges anymore. I eventually get around to re-doing even the better factory edges anyway, to suit my own preferences.
 
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Here is a video from "How it's Made" on pocket knives. The whole 5 minutes or so is worth watching, but you can jump to 4:25 to see how Case sharpens their knives.
You can see how fast the material is ground off, I don't know what grit they use but it's not terribly fine that's for sure. A wire edge is easy to leave sharpening like this. I personally find the factory edges from Case to be plenty sharp. Not as pretty as my own re-profiled edges, but they will get the job done for sure.

Enjoy

[video=youtube;LyTKaVE8olc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyTKaVE8olc[/video]
 
That "How It's Made" video is what jumped to mind when seeing this thread. I thought it interesting that Case actually sharpens their blades in edge-leading fashion on the belt (direction can be seen by the spark trail exiting behind the blade). When first seeing that, it all made sense to me as to why Case's edges look the way they do. Very coarse, with big, honkin' burrs & wire edges (even at the shoulders of the bevel, oftentimes, which can only happen with edge-leading passes). :)

(screen capture from the "How It's Made" video)
 
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Yeah, I think Christian nailed it.

It has only been the last few years that I came to understand that a lot of people don't agree with me on factory edges. I couldn't care less what it looks like because if I am going to carry it then it will ALWAYS get my edge on it. Every time. And needless to say if I am not going to carry it I don't really care what kind of edge is on it. Folks would complain about the factory edge and I'd think to myself 'Isn't this joker going to sharpen the thing?' :)

I guess I'm just an old fashioned guy ahead of my time. The thought of carrying a knife with a factory edge on it seems so... uncivilized. Kind of like deer hunting with a shotgun or something, lol. JK.

Will
 
Thanks guys, this is what I was looking for. I do re sharpen and use them. It just struck me odd how all of these different companys knives came with the same "unfinished feel" to their edges.
 
A factory sharp edge is important because 95% of people cannot sharpen a blade. They buy a good new USA folder, find it cuts poorly because the edges have not been properly sharpened, get discouraged and next time opt for the super cheap import, which, surprise, is very sharp. Then, if they need/want more knives, they buy the imports. End result: declining sales and USA companies may go out of business.
roland
 
rprocter said:
A factory sharp edge is important because 95% of people cannot sharpen a blade. They buy a good new USA folder, find it cuts poorly because the edges have not been properly sharpened, get discouraged and next time opt for the super cheap import, which, surprise, is very sharp. Then, if they need/want more knives, they buy the imports. End result: declining sales and USA companies may go out of business.
roland
Click to expand...

Roland, I think you are more right than a lot of people on here would like to believe.
 
What Christian said.

I think another thing to be added is that, in general, I think traditional knives are more likely (and more correctly) to use more traditional steels more likely to be associated with working class users by farmers, laborers and construction workers where its assumed you can maintain and even modify your tools to suit your preference. Carbon is easy to sharpen. 420HC and 440A are both easy. 440C is a bit tougher but still doable by mortals.

I have a buddy who is very big into modern tacticals. He wants the best "out of the box" experience with the edge and he associates that with an indication of the "quality" of the knife - even if that means that the knife is something he can't sharpen, like his ceramic bladed wonder that he's so fond of.

In "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", Pirsig contrasts 2 riders. One who has an old Honda that he maintains himself and another who owns a BMW who "never touches *that* stuff" and who has his bike serviced by the dealer only.

IMO, traditional knifes are the former not the latter. As Obsessed with Edges said, I take the factory edge only as a starting point. I'm sharpening it as soon I can anyway. Heck, I often treat the whole blade as a starting point. I expect to need to buff out grind marks on Opinels but with a bit of tuning, I'll put their cutting up against about anything. And I'm a sharpening hack.
 
pinnah said:
In "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", Pirsig contrasts 2 riders. One who has an old Honda that he maintains himself and another who owns a BMW who "never touches *that* stuff" and who has his bike serviced by the dealer only.

IMO, traditional knifes are the former not the latter. As Obsessed with Edges said, I take the factory edge only as a starting point. I'm sharpening it as soon I can anyway. Heck, I often treat the whole blade as a starting point. I expect to need to buff out grind marks on Opinels but with a bit of tuning, I'll put their cutting up against about anything. And I'm a sharpening hack.
Click to expand...

excellent book and excellent point
i am not exactly jumping into this conversation since my sharpening skills are not where they need to be, but i working on it

but cool book reference ;)
 
I think it could be liability issues. Its like the cup of coffee that was too hot from McDonalds that spilled in the ladies lap...she sued for big bucks! Maybe its not honed to a razor edge so that those uninitiated in handling a slilpjoint, when they inevitably snap closed on skin or a finger do less damage?...its a theory....
 
I don't think the quality of the factory edge is strictly about modern versus traditional brands or models.
There was a very informative documentary on Dutch television about brand new higher end kitchen knives that, apart from those made by Herder, were all in desperate need of sharpening.
I believe the general public doesn't really appreciate a scary sharp knife so most manufacturers don't make them scary sharp which saves them money too. Seeing how most uninformed people judge sharpness it is probably for the better as well. First warning I give anyone that wants to have a look at my knife is that it is actually sharp and I don't want them to slide their thumb along the edge.
 
Obsessed one factor can be safety.Sharpening the other way could lead to a blade closing on the hand of the operator. Belt going away with the leading edge keeps it forced open.
 
I can understand that the manufacturers don't sharpen the knives to a shaving sharpness. This is an easy problem to fix for the enduser who wants it sharp and saves them a lot of work. And speaking from my personal experience, a lot consider a toothy edge (or serrated blades as well) "sharper" than a nicely honed one.

My biggest problem however is the edge geometry of some factory edges. I usually like my edges thin (behind the bevel) and at an angle of ~30 degrees. When a factory edge comes at an angle of up to 90 degrees and more than 1 mm behind the edge (I'm looking at you, Queen :grumpy: ), then a LOT of metal has to be removed to get it to a state I like. GEC does a pretty good job, they have rather obtuse angles as well sometimes, but the edges are thin.

I wish they came completely UNsharpened, so everyone can have the edge the way they like.
 
A knife is a tool
I sharpen my planes, wood chisels, cold chisel and my screwdrivers
I sharpen my tools to how I will use them
So a factory edge is of no real use to me

But
For the guy that does not know how to sharpen.
Then the cutler fails the buyer by having a poor factory edge
 
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