Question about first damascus attempt.

D

deker

Joined
Nov 14, 2005
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It looks like my blacksmith guild will be running a striking workshop soon, so I figure that having somebody to strike for me would be a pretty good time to make a first run at a damascus billet.

What I'm trying to figure out is what materials will reduce my complexity and make it as successful as possbile. I have some of Mace's 1"x1/4" 1084 here (which I know I'll have to grind the scale off of) as well as some 1"x5/16" O-1. Would this be an "easy to weld" combination? I've done some forge welding, but I'm no master at it.

Should I just get some 15N20 from Kelly Couples and find some ground 1095 or 5160? I'd kind of prefer to work with something I have on hand if possible since I fully expect that my first damascus attempt will probably be less than spectacular and will not be much good for anything. That being said having it be $5 in materials rather than $20 would hurt less when it fails. I would continue on the path of scrounging for stuff locally, but I have a feeling that this workshop will be sooner than later so I wat to make sure that I have everything I need ready to go.

Also, any other suggestions for a first-timer? I've been forging for some time, but this is the first attempt at making a damascus billet.

Thanks,

-d
 
deker, You should go there assuming that your damascus will turn out perfect. Forge welding success is a state of mind (except for a simple formula of heat and flux). That being said do yourself a favor and use the easiest materials with some kind of contrasting colors. 1084 and 15n20 are the standard among most smiths and very available. Kelly Couples is the best guy I know to buy the 15n20 from. He even cuts it for you.

One thing that I see concern about is the "strikers" To make the first tender welds you dont need very much force but after the initial welds are solid it would be very fun to let somebody else strike it for the drawing out process.

It sure sounds like a fun time. Wish I was there
 
Bruce Bump said:
deker, You should go there assuming that your damascus will turn out perfect. Forge welding success is a state of mind (except for a simple formula of heat and flux).
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State of mind on the day of will be much different than my state of mind in preparation :) At the moment I'm being pessimistic in order to find the way to make it as successful as possible.

Bruce Bump said:
That being said do yourself a favor and use the easiest materials with some kind of contrasting colors. 1084 and 15n20 are the standard among most smiths and very available. Kelly Couples is the best guy I know to buy the 15n20 from. He even cuts it for you.
Click to expand...

That being said, will the 15N20 that Kelly sells, being pretty thin, cause me any heartache? Should I go for 1084 of similar thickness or would 1/4" 1084 with .095" 15N20 sandwitched in between be a good enough start?

Bruce Bump said:
One thing that I see concern about is the "strikers" To make the first tender welds you dont need very much force but after the initial welds are solid it would be very fun to let somebody else strike it for the drawing out process.
Click to expand...

That's EXACTLY my plan. I'll set the welds and then my striker can help draw it out. It's looking like my wife may even come along to be my striker :) She took a blacksmithing class from my guild and the one thing she heard over and over was "don't hit it so hard". That, combined with the fact that she seemed to be a natural at forge welding seems to indicate she'd make a great striker for damascus making :)

Bruce Bump said:
It sure sounds like a fun time. Wish I was there
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You're welcome to come visit any time you'd like!

Oh, and another question, I know that surface preparation can make all the difference in making flaw-free welds. Should I plan to run 2 billets so that I can let one cool to grind off scale before folding while I work on another?

Thanks!

-d
 
Hey Decker , you got the right idea by having the old girl help you out. Thats what I do , I set the welds and then turn into the striker while the wife does the drawing out. We get a pretty good rhythm going (its just natural don't ya know :) ) and have come to making a pretty good team. My wife only weighs 100 lbs soaking wet & tires pretty quick swinging a sledge so we have been working the way I described. Ever see a team of strikers working a billet ? Its one of the neatest things you'll ever see , especially if they've been working together for a while.Its a sweet song that you hear and you would be amazed at how fast you can work one out.I don't have the luxury of a press.....yet. Coming soon though.Until then ............;)
 
Just what Bruce said and:
1/4'' 1084 and .70 to .95 15N20 is a good mix. With the 1084 on the outsides of the billet, the thin stuff wont cause any trouble.

PS, some don't.....but I do grind the scale off the 1084 and I grind between folds while the billet is hot with a big angle grinder. I actually draw the billet out long, grind clean, then cut into 4 or 5 pieces and restack,
 
If you can simply sandwich the thinner stock in the center of the two thick outer pieces it will help keep the thin one from warping during the heating process. With the press I can stack the billet and include shim stock but you may want to weld only 3-5 pieces by hand.

The real secret is to protect the seams with flux so scale doesnt form. You cant weld scale. It helps to slightly radious the surfaces so the flux will squeeze out and not get trapped inside the weld (inclusion).

I like to stretch it out and let it cool, grind off the scale, cut it into equal lengths and restack it. I write down the numbers so I can remember how many layers I am up to.
 
sunfishman said:
PS, some don't.....but I do grind the scale off the 1084 and I grind between folds while the billet is hot with a big angle grinder. I actually draw the billet out long, grind clean, then cut into 4 or 5 pieces and restack,
Click to expand...

I never thought of an angle grinder...I figured I'd have to wait until it cooled...thanks for the idea!

Bruce Bump said:
If you can simply sandwich the thinner stock in the center of the two thick outer pieces it will help keep the thin one from warping during the heating process. With the press I can stack the billet and include shim stock but you may want to weld only 3-5 pieces by hand.
Click to expand...

That's kind of what I thought, but I wanted to make certain.

Bruce Bump said:
The real secret is to protect the seams with flux so scale doesnt form. You cant weld scale. It helps to slightly radious the surfaces so the flux will squeeze out and not get trapped inside the weld (inclusion).
Click to expand...

Do you generally grind in the scarf or just forge it a bit round before continuing? I guess it doesn't really matter does it?

Bruce Bump said:
I like to stretch it out and let it cool, grind off the scale, cut it into equal lengths and restack it. I write down the numbers so I can remember how many layers I am up to.
Click to expand...

It's that attention to detail that makes a Master Smith :)


So, would anybody want to trade a guy some 15N20 in exchange for some ~1" round W1 or O1? That's something I have a fair bit of already... Also, the bandsaw steel that Dan Gray sells is 15N20 isn't it? That seems like a lower cost option. Has anybody here used it with success?

-d
 
If ya wanna go low-cost, check out yer local sawmill for some bandsaw blade and any place which handles pallets he black banding material is usually 1095. Metal fab and woodshops also sometimes have bandsaw material.
Just make sure ya test it for hardenability.
I get some pretty nice patterns using this stuff.The only drawback is having to start with quite a few layers, mebbe 25 or so,to get a decent billet. ymmv bruce
 
The only thing I would add to the above is get "the flux on as early as possible" and protect the layers.

You can use the banding material just the way it comes, painted black. Stick a piece of this between troublesome layers and it will stick like magic. I have no idea why. Maybe the paint.:D

Fred
 
Hey..Let me know when you are going to do this..If I can make it ..I'll be there.

Larry
 
Nowicki said:
Hey..Let me know when you are going to do this..If I can make it ..I'll be there.
Click to expand...

Larry,

I'll check if the workshop will be open to guild members only or not once they schedule it. I'll let you know.

-d
 
(Quote) So, would anybody want to trade a guy some 15N20 in exchange for some ~1" round W1 or O1? That's something I have a fair bit of already... Also, the bandsaw steel that Dan Gray sells is 15N20 isn't it? That seems like a lower cost option. Has anybody here used it with success?

I may be willing to trade some 15n20 for equal weight of your 01. My 15n20 is 1' x 6" I cant remember the thickness but if you are interested in the trade I will measure it.
 
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