Question about quenching/heat treating/tempering

A

aZZeee

Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
4
Hi everyone, as you all noticed I'm new to the forum. As a beginner knife maker, I have made my research and came across a few methods of annealing, heat treatment and tempering steel. But still I rather ask here, where there are people who make knives for a living and know what they are doing. For sure there is someone out here that has also tried making knives/blades out of round saw blades.

Like everyone else who first started knife making, I made some mistakes and I learnt the hard way. Without doing any research I bought a 3 foot 3/8 inch x 6 inch flat bar of steel made of "Hardox 400". Talked with my friend, and he told me that I need proper heat treatment, annealing, tempering techniques for every kind of metal. I read about it, and it's totally useless for making knives. Anyways, after that I decided to find some circular saw blades, since good steel is very hard to find around here unless I get it shipped in (But the cost of shipping to Canada and steel is too high on the net). I came across a man trying to sell his old circular saw blades. He told me that they're at least 15-25 years old and that most of them are made out of High Carbon Steel. I assume that the big blades, those which are very rusty are made out of High Carbon Steel and a few smaller ones are also High Carbon Steel. I know that the ones with carbon teeth, usually the body isn't made out of good steel since it's just the teeth doing the job. Those saws usually don't rust because they contain a very small amount of C % and more Cr %, which is more likely stainless steel or not good steel at all
I will post some pictures after my text, below the thread for you guys to see and tell me your advice or help.

A very professional knife maker once told me that saw blades make a perfect knife/blade/sword if I follow these simple rules :
1. Forge or grind to shape

2. Finish to preheat treat level
Shape and rough finish all components of the knife such as bolster, handle, etc., etc.
leave blade edge thicker than finished edge at this point

2a. When forging --- normalize X 3
Normalizing is done by heating to about 100*F above critical
(red-orange or non- magnetic) and air cooling
(to reduce stresses in metal created by hammering and deformation of steel)

Heat to (orange – red) and allow cooling to air temp X 3

3. Heat treatment
Heat to non-magnetic approximately 1450* and quench in appropriate quench medium.
(This depends highly on the metal you are using at the time)
Quench mediums and heat treatment ranges are sometimes supplied by the company
that supplies the steel, I.E. (Admiral Steel)

4. Temper
Take steel directly from quench medium to an already preheated oven, and heat at
400* for approx. 2hrs.
Making a clean patch on the tang will help you to be able to recognize the color
change from blue to light straw color more easily

5. Finish to final stages
sanding, polishing, and final fit for components

6. Final assembly


7. Final blade edge

Obviously not the same temps for different kind of steel, and maybe some different steps along the treatment.
He told me to treat the less rusty saws like stainless steel with 12% Chrome, which is D-2 Steel . And to treat the rustier saw blades without carbon tips as L-6 High Carbon Steel . And the saw blades with Carbon-Tungsten teeth, not to use at all unless I experiment with it since the body is made out of cheap steel.
- Are these good advice given by my friend ?
I heard that some blades are made out of High Speed Steel but the ones without carbon teeth usually have a good High Carbon Steel body.
- Is this true, if so, how can I differentiate "HSS" from "HCS" ?

Here is the link for the pictures; this is my first time converting pictures into url, so if it isn't working or showing up, please tell me and I will try to repair.

My-Photos

OR
http://village.photos/members/aZZeee/My-Photos

Any advice or help given will be gladly appreciated.
Thank you for your time and I wish you all a Happy upcoming Christmas !
Bye .
 
Welcome to Bladeforums and Shop Talk.

Filling out your profile is important. It not only tells us where you live, but a bit about you. Things like age and occupation give us info to give you better answers.

The search engine for Bladeforums is:
https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

The stickys at the top of the Shop Talk page have a lot of info on getting started, including a good tutorial on making a knife.

Sadly, you listened to bad advice twice. You already know that Hardox 400 isn't knife steel. You are now going to learn that those saw blades are likely useless for knives, too. You have no idea what type steel it actually is...and the odds are the steel type is likely wrong. Since you don't have any idea what it is, you have no idea how to HT it. The one thing I can assure you is that it won' HT like a normal blade steel ( if at all). sadly, the guy who sold you the circular blades gave poor info, and probably just wanted to sell his old stack of saw blades.

Just get some blade steel and do it right. There are Canadian suppliers, welding shops, machine shops, Canadian metal suppliers, etc. There are also a bunch of Canadian knife makers who can steer you in the right direction. Your very best choice as a new maker is 1080 or 1084. Aldo Bruno ( New Jersey Steel Baron) sells great steel only for knives and he ships to CA affordably.

If you do a search with the above engine, you will find a lot of discussion on using saw blades as knife metal. Once upon a time, 75-100 years ago, they were good steel for knives. For well over 50 years, almost all circular saw blades are not that type of steel. Small circular saw blades ( less that 24") are almost never good steel. Without having the steel tested it would be foolish to try and make a knife from it.

In the mean time, draw up some sketches and post them here for people to help you refine them into a good starting project. The most important thing is to take your time when getting started...or you may make many wrong turns.
 
Knifemaker.ca has many steel options and their shipping prices are reasonable. They also sell by the inch, if you just want a small amount of steel.
 
Hey, just a simple question, are you paid to promote their websites ?
Cause you're the only person always sending people away to their site and saying that; Oh that metal isn't good enough..
Personnaly, I know the older blades are made out of HCS or HSS.
 
aZZeee said:
Hey, just a simple question, are you paid to promote their websites ?
Cause you're the only person always sending people away to their site and saying that; Oh that metal isn't good enough..
Personnaly, I know the older blades are made out of HCS or HSS.
Click to expand...

Why ask for advice if you already have all the answers?

Good luck...
 
I would recommend filling in your profile info and maybe someone local can help you out with a local supply for steel.

As for questioning Stacy and Shane you are barking up the wrong tree. They took the time to address your questions with a very cordial well written response that was a lot longer than I would have given. The advice that Stacy has given seems repetitive because so many new makers ask the same questions you did and when starting out make the same assumptions about circular saw blades that you did. The reason he directs people to Aldo often is because he has proven time and time again to supply excellent knife making steel specifically for knife makers and is reliable and fairly priced. He directs so many new people there because it is a good route to go.

At the risk of being repetitive and you wasting time and effort It is best to get a known piece of steel that has a known heat treat. 1084 is a great place to start. The circ saw blades are unknown steel that might be heat treatable but may make a worthless knife shaped object. You may think you know what the blades are made out of but the only way to be sure is to send it for testing and that isn't exactly cheap. It sounds like you have researched and want to do things the right way. Stacy's way is the right way to do it.
 
No disrespect, I was just asking a simple question. I just seen way too many youtube videos, where they use circular saw blades and end up with the most prettiest and durable thing.
What if the blades are already heat treated and tempered ? Can I do another round after I'm done cutting out the knife? And instead of having them tested out, do you think I can cut off a small piece, test the hardness out myself, before and after the heat treatment & tempering. With a file or an angle grinder. Maybe try different pieces at different temperatures and different quenching liquids (Ex: old motor oïl, half salted water half old motor oïl or just simply water or salted water). There is a video, where he explains how to test out the sawblades, if you have time to check it out, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJAKOtlJB48
Anyways, don't take my question from before personnally, I just didn't understand why people always get directed to that website when you can make perfect knifes out of saw blades.
Thanks,
Bye
 
I didn't think you had any ill intentions when you asked your questions. What I and others will keep trying to get across to you is what we have already pointed out. I was curious and did watch the video. Here are some thoughts and this is by no means a complete list of things wrong with the video but just the things that pop out to me:

1: the steel he is using would still be considered an "unknown" steel with an unknown level of carbon and unknown proper heat treat. Yes, it may have hardened with his experiment. Does that make it a good steel to make a knife from? Absolutely not. It may have hardened certain spots but not all the way through or evenly.
2: who is to say that his file was a decent file. For all we know he had a harbor freight pos made in China with a low hardness level, or one that is simply case hardened, or even just one that is dull. If you notice he files back and forth. That is a very bad technique for using a file. Dulls the piss right out of it. This is just about as far away from a scientific test as you can get. It may be that the steel is just a little too hard for his now dull file to cut into. It does not prove that the steel is great or even good for making knives.
3: his recipe for tempering is to stick it in an oven for a little while to temper it back so it isn't brittle. This may work through a lot of trial and error but it would only be useful if every circular saw blade is made from the same steel with the same alloys and carbon content. Sadly this is not the case and you would probably eat up enough steel testing each blade to make it not worth it.
4: already mentioned is the lack of basic scientific method. Everything he does is an unknown. If he had a hardness tester to verify anything I may start paying attention. There have been big discussions on this board over small heat treating differences on known steels. Kevin Cashen would be all over that video if he was still around.

If you are looking for a way to fill your weekend and mess around making a knife that may be hard by all means no one here will stop you. Your first post led me to believe you would like to make a proper knife with proper technique. The saw blades will not accomplish that. They may look ok, they may even get decently hard and cut some things, but in the end they will not be what I believe you are looking for. Use a proper known steel from a reputable source (it doesn't have to be from Aldo) and follow the proper heat treat and temper for it and you will have a proper knife. Everything else is just guessing. And you will be very far from a "perfect knife out of a saw blade" as you mentioned in your last post.

As to your other questions:
Yes, you can re heat treat and temper a knife but you shouldn't have to.
The only way to properly test your hardness is with a hardness tester. There are file sets with known Rockwell harnesses but these are limited in their usefulness to test hardness.
As for your trial and error with motor oil, salted water, water, or a combo of those. You need to do lots more reading on this. Old motor oil is very bad to use. Toxic smoke, fire risk, improper quenching effectiveness to name just a few. The salted water or brine as it is better known takes a lot of knowledge and trial and error even on known steels to get it correct. I have seen many very experienced makers crack knives in brine because of a small imperfection in the blade. Straight water is even worse. 1084 in heated canola should make a decent knife and is about the easiest setup for a new maker. We haven't even started on how you are going to heat the blade evenly to the proper temp which opens up a whole bother can of worms.

Please take my post as an offer to help. It takes a while to soak up all the info that is provided on this forum. It is a veritable gold mine of info being shared by very skilled blade smiths and makers. I don't know what the guy in the video does for a living but the guys here giving the good info (for free) have been making and selling knives for a long time. Some even do it for a living. Who would you rather trust? It's like asking a very qualified doctor for advise on a subject then saying "well my buddy down the street told me this. Why should I listen to what you have to say doc?"
 
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Do as you wish with your saw blades, but you need to know that HSS and HCS are not necessarily knife blade steel. HCS is a term that notates there is a fair amount of carbon in the alloy. It isn't always high enough for making a knife. Much HCS is only .35-.50% carbon. HSS is alloyed to run fast and not loose its hardness at higher temperatures. The tradeoff is toughness. It will usually make a blade that chips easily. Saw blades are made to be tough, the hardness is only in the tips, which are often carbide. Even the all steel blades usually have impulse hardened tips and a softer body. It may seem hard, and the knife made form it may seem sharp, but chipping or a lack of edge retention are common problems with such materials being used for a knife.

I and others have had many saw blades analyzed, and spoken with the tech guys at several manufacturers. Most modern saw blades are a Chromalloy type metal that isn't good for knife blades. Only a few of the older large saw blades I have checked were a steel with .70% carbon and a bit of nickel and chrome. That makes a good knife blade.

No one gets paid to suggest buying the right steel for making a knife. The payment is when the poster makes a good knife from the known steel and is happy with the outcome. Sadly, many are not happy when they try to save a few dollars using mystery steel.
 
From chemical composition I think you should normalizing the steel at 1650F, 1550 and 1450. This kind of steel should benefit from super quench, if I were you I would try heat treat at 1550-1600F and quench in the fastest media you can find, brind/water etc. tempering twice at 400F. This just my guess base on 4340 steel I have ever tried. Good luck with your knife:)
 
aZZeee said:
No disrespect, I was just asking a simple question. I just seen way too many youtube videos, where they use circular saw blades and end up with the most prettiest and durable thing.
What if the blades are already heat treated and tempered ? Can I do another round after I'm done cutting out the knife? And instead of having them tested out, do you think I can cut off a small piece, test the hardness out myself, before and after the heat treatment & tempering. With a file or an angle grinder. Maybe try different pieces at different temperatures and different quenching liquids (Ex: old motor oïl, half salted water half old motor oïl or just simply water or salted water). There is a video, where he explains how to test out the sawblades, if you have time to check it out, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJAKOtlJB48
Anyways, don't take my question from before personnally, I just didn't understand why people always get directed to that website when you can make perfect knifes out of saw blades.
Thanks,
Bye
Click to expand...

I watched that video you linked, the poster of it is himself in no position to offer advice on the subject. He's not a professional knife maker or metal worker, and the advice he is providing would be considered by those in the field as poor. Perhaps you should research the credentials of the people who are offering advice before believing everything they say, since posting a video on youtube doesn't make anyone an expert in anything.

Also when approaching someone or a community of people who have most likely been working in the craft for longer than you've been alive, it's best to approach them humbly and listen to what they have to say without contradicting them with information you've collected from youtube videos made by random people and insulting them by insinuating that they're a paid shill for a supplier.
 
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aZZeee said:
I just didn't understand why people always get directed to that website when you can make perfect knifes out of saw blades.
Thanks,
Bye
Click to expand...

But can you really? I say try making knives from saw blades and have them tested. Let us know how it works. You might be happy with the results. With that said, the information provided on this site is top notch and is based on many years of experience.

Go make some saw blade knives.
 
Stacy and the other give great advice and point out the proper way to go about things. That said, I will throw out my 2cents and hope not to be jumped on too badly. Knifemaking is fun and there is no problem trying to make use of what you have... As long as you have reasonable expectations and remain honest in how you present yourself and your work. Not all of us wish to make a career out of this craft... you can take it as far as you want.

Although I will never "officially" sell products made of unknown steel, I make them regularly for myself, friends and the odd customer who gives me specific scrap to make a tool out of(usually for sentimental reasons.). There are ways to test steel and find out if it will make a serviceable knife. Don't give up on your saw blades just yet. It is true, that you will never "nail" the heat treat of a steel with unknown composition but there are lots of folks who make good knives out of scrap and "scrap knives" out of good steel. The most important aspect of knifemaking is testing and being able to interpret the results. Let me run you through a typical process I use to test scrap steel...

Cut/forge out several small "coupons"(approx. 1/8"x 1"x 3-4").

Take one coupon, heat it to bright orange/yellow, let it air cool, put it in a vice and smack it with a hammer(wear the appropriate safety gear). If it shatters like glass, you probably have a stainless alloy. You can't HT this stuff simply and HT'g services won't touch unknown steel. Make a boat anchor out of it.:cool:

Take another coupon, heat it to just past non-magnetic, quench it in water, put it in a vice and smack it with a hammer(wear appropriate safety gear). If it bends before it breaks or doesn't even break, it is low carbon(mild) steel. Make a hinge or some hooks out of it, sell them to make money to buy better steel.:p If it shatters like glass, it is most likely high carbon steel. This is worth more testing, but don't celebrate yet.:rolleyes:

Take another coupon, and run it through some simple thermal cycles:
- Heat to 1650F(bright Orange), let it cool back down to magnetic.
- Heat to 1525F(bright Red), let it cool to magnetic
- Heat to 1475F(medium Red, just past non-magnetic), let it cool to magnetic and oil quench.
- Heat to 1300F(dull Red, still magnetic) and let air cool, twice.
Try to drill a hole through it. It should be very easy(with a good drill bit, of course) You have just refined the grain and annealed your scrap. If you have problem drilling through, you may have to stick it in ash or vermiculite/perlite to slow cool. This sometimes happens with thin cross-sections of carbon steel with a bit of alloying. If this all works out, you can go to the next step... if not, use the coupons as paper weights for all the TTT charts you print out for the proper steel you'll soon purchase.:D

Take the coupon you just refined and annealled, heat it to 1500F(a little past non-magnetic, cherry red) and quench in warm oil(130F canola will work). Preheat a kitchen oven to 425F. Use two racks and cover them with tin foil... this will shield the blade from IR radiation of the heating elements. Get a cookie tray with some sand in it for thermal mass. Temper your blade for 1hr(at temp), twice, with a water quench in between. Your coupon should be still hard. Test it with a file and use an unhardened coupon for reference. Remember that there will be a layer of decarb after all that thermal cycling. You are going to need to grind/file/sand through that to get to the hard stuff.

If it all works out, you MAY have some decent knife steel. There are many other factors involved so make some knives with yer' junk steel:p and test the heck of 'em!

Professional knifemakers use known steel, temperature control, appropriate quench medium and accurate information for a reason. That is not to say you can't make a good knife with less-than-ideal means, just not with the same amount of certainty.

Knifemaking is a "Con" job... Confidence, Consistency, and Constant improvement.

Have fun
 
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Ocelot85 said:
I watched that video you linked, the poster of it is himself in no position to offer advice on the subject. He's not a professional knife maker or metal worker, and the advice he is providing would be considered by those in the field as poor. Perhaps you should research the credentials of the people who are offering advice before believing everything they say, since posting a video on youtube doesn't make anyone an expert in anything.

Also when approaching someone or a community of people who have most likely been working in the craft for longer than you've been alive, it's best to approach them humbly and listen to what they have to say without contradicting them with information you've collected from youtube videos made by random people and insulting them by insinuating that they're a paid shill for a supplier.
Click to expand...

Thanks' to everyone who gave helped out and gave me their personal advice. Thank's to Stacy, shqxk, wloch248 and especially Rick Marchand ( useful advice there buddy :D ), who went out of their ways, and helped me. I will definitely check out Kevin Cashen and his website; http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/steelselection.html , when I have some spare time on my hands. I have also taken into consideration what all of you have said and explained, and will try ordering a known steel after trying out and experimenting as much as possible all these different techniques and skills I learned, on the saw blades I currently have. But it's only after a little bit of experience in knife making I will allow myself to purchase a known steel that'll cost me 15 times as much as these blades.

And for you, who dares put in his useless 2 cents. Excuse me, but who are you to juge me ? Do you know who I am, what I do for a living ? How can you say that someone's been doing crafts for longer then I've been alive ? That is just absurd, cause you don't have the slightest clue of who I am and how old I may be.. I may be 20 or I may be in my 60's. And I personally haven't insulted anyone contrary to what you said, all I did was ask a simple question, if you didn't know how to read. And tell me why would I need to research someone's credentials when he/she are trying to help from their personal experience. They're just trying to help with no bad intentions, but look at you for exemple, I don't know who the hell you are and what shitty day job you , and all you did was talk a bunch of shit and bitch around, when you could of give an advice, help out or something, like a normal person.

I personally know and have seen very crafty and talented knife makers turn a simple circular blade into a jewel! So a response saying: "That steel isn't good enough, you should buy from this site instead", doesn't answer my question, because I have seen and know for a fact that old circular saws contain enough carbon content to make a decent blade.
I just wanted to know if there was anyone that had used saw blades in the past, and managed to make a durable and long lasting knife. I didn't want to offend no one, especially not someone that is trying to help me. So all you whom took the time to answer and help me out, I'm very thankful and appreciative, and I wish you and your family to have a great time this upcoming Christmas and a happy New Year.

Thanks,
Goodbye,

- Alex.
 
aZZeee said:
.....................................
And for you, who dares put in his useless 2 cents. Excuse me, but who are you to juge me ? Do you know who I am, what I do for a living ? How can you say that someone's been doing crafts for longer then I've been alive ? That is just absurd, cause you don't have the slightest clue of who I am and how old I may be.. I may be 20 or I may be in my 60's. And I personally haven't insulted anyone contrary to what you said, all I did was ask a simple question, if you didn't know how to read. And tell me why would I need to research someone's credentials when he/she are trying to help from their personal experience. They're just trying to help with no bad intentions, but look at you for exemple, I don't know who the hell you are and what shitty day job you , and all you did was talk a bunch of shit and bitch around, when you could of give an advice, help out or something, like a normal person. ............................

- Alex.
Click to expand...

Wow, having a bad day? Please try and resist venting so harshly, it will not help you.

This is exactly why we recommend filling out your profile. The info you say we don't know would be known....sort of the same reason we recommend using steel from a blade steel supplier - The specs you don't know would be known.
 
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