Question about scandi grinds

[pastormarty]

Am I correct in understanding that, generally speaking, a scandi grind is easier to sharpen but often a less durable edge than some others? For example, if a Mora clipper has an inclusive angle of 23deg, that would seem to me to be a sharp but not-so-durable edge; but being scandi would be very easy to resharpen on a stone. Am I thinking about that the right way?

 

[Jason B.]

You are correct.

 

[Thomas Linton]

The concept is simpler. The amount of metal to remove is greater. The result is less generally useful.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

A scandi grind is easier for a rote beginner to sharpen because the wide bevel provides "training wheels" to guide the motion of sharpening, but conventional edges are easier to sharpen for the experienced individual because they can hold a consistent angle without guidance and less material needs to be removed to sharpen the edge. The edge durability really has much less to do with the grind and much more to do with the angle of that grind. A knife with an included angle of 23° would technically be more durable if it was a scandi grind vs. a grind like a full flat grind of equal edge angle since there would be less material behind the edge.

 

[sodak]

A scandi grind should have a more durable edge, all things being equal, which of course, they're not. IMO, a scandi grind is much too thick, but all that metal behind the edge helps to support it. Most of the cheaper scandi grinds use a steel that's too soft for my liking, a harder steel will always be stronger. The Roselli knives in UHC steel are pretty good, around 66 hrc or so. But because they are so hard, they don't need the support of all that steel and would greatly benefit from a FFG, imo. Ymmv.

 

[Thomas Linton]

With respect, sodak, we must have a communications problem. Probably my fault.

A saber grind with a secondary bevel (example a saber) , all things being equal, is stronger than a "Scandi" (i.e. UK) grind with no secondary bevel. Without that secondary bevel, the edge is more acute and has less steel "behind it."

If a blade it made with a very high single bevel and is not "too" thick for it's height, there is no reason it cannot cut like a laser as they do so even with the normal secondary bevel. Now some of the "bushcraft" knives I have handled are thick for their height and sometimes have a bevel less than half the height of the blade. They are not lasers, but someone must like them. They sell for a premium.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

With respect, sodak, we must have a communications problem. Probably my fault.

A saber grind with a secondary bevel (example a saber) , all things being equal, is stronger than a "Scandi" (i.e. UK) grind with no secondary bevel. Without that secondary bevel, the edge is more acute and has less steel "behind it."

Not if "all things are equal." If the edge angle is the same then the saber grind inherently must be thinner behind the edge in order for it to have that given edge angle without being zeroed. The scandi would technically be the thickest form that the knife could have for its edge angle if both edge angle and stock thickness are kept constant. If you hollowed it you'd be going thinner and if you convexed it either your edge angle would increase or you'd be reducing the thickness at the shoulder transition.

The main advantage of the scandi grind I see is for making very flat controllable cuts on wood while being able to break from the cut well, using the shoulder as a fulcrum point.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'll throw this out as well, on the Scandis with wider bevels like many of the puukkos, the Scandi behaves like more of a full convex. There might only be a degree or two deviation from shoulder to apex, but makes it plenty tough at about 24-26*. Any edge made from the more common steels at 23* is going to be a little fragile. On the Scandi grind it makes for a fantastic wood working edge.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I'll throw this out as well, on the Scandis with wider bevels like many of the puukkos, the Scandi behaves like more of a full convex. There might only be a degree or two deviation from shoulder to apex, but makes it plenty tough at about 24-26*. Any edge made from the more common steels at 23* is going to be a little fragile. On the Scandi grind it makes for a fantastic wood working edge.

Unless you special order, you will have a hard time finding a puukko with a UK "Scandi" grind as the vast majority are convex, concave, and/or have a secondary bevel.

 

[sodak]

With respect, sodak, we must have a communications problem. Probably my fault.

A saber grind with a secondary bevel (example a saber) , all things being equal, is stronger than a "Scandi" (i.e. UK) grind with no secondary bevel. Without that secondary bevel, the edge is more acute and has less steel "behind it."

If a blade it made with a very high single bevel and is not "too" thick for it's height, there is no reason it cannot cut like a laser as they do so even with the normal secondary bevel. Now some of the "bushcraft" knives I have handled are thick for their height and sometimes have a bevel less than half the height of the blade. They are not lasers, but someone must like them. They sell for a premium.

Sorry Thomas, it's probably me. I think we are saying the same thing here.

I have a Roselli UHC Carpenter's knife (very nice knife, I like it a lot). It's a scandi grind with a zero grind, i.e., no secondary bevel. Because of the hardness and the half inch bevel, it takes a while to sharpen. But you can literally sharpen it without looking. So you could say it's easier or harder to sharpen, depending on whether you are concerned with constant edge angle or the amount of time....

Now if I have it re-ground to a FFG with a secondary edge angle, the primary grind will be a smaller angle and thinner than the scandi grind. If I take a caliper and set it to 0.010 inches, it will slide up the FFG farther than the scandi. I guess that's what I was trying to say. It cuts very well right now, I can't wait to take it down...

The main advantage of the scandi grind I see is for making very flat controllable cuts on wood while being able to break from the cut well, using the shoulder as a fulcrum point.

Good point.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Unless you special order, you will have a hard time finding a puukko with a UK "Scandi" grind as the vast majority are convex, concave, and/or have a secondary bevel.

I am no expert across makers, but my two Jarvenpaa puukkos came with near flat bevel sides at approx 25* - was a beautiful thing to see coming out of the box like that. No, they are not perfectly flat, but as I mentioned earlier, a degree or so deviation across approx 5/8" qualifies as flat for all practical purposes. And no secondary bevel either. One of these is the knife I use in the first few Washboard videos - my all time favorite EDC and holds an edge as well or better than any other knife I own of comparable steel. Admittedly, every Mora I own out of the box has had a slight convex with a hollow in the middle, and ofttimes a secondary bevel - hit or miss.

Martin

 

[Thomas Linton]

I am no expert across makers, but my two Jarvenpaa puukkos came with near flat bevel sides at approx 25* - was a beautiful thing to see coming out of the box like that. No, they are not perfectly flat, but as I mentioned earlier, a degree or so deviation across approx 5/8" qualifies as flat for all practical purposes. And no secondary bevel either. One of these is the knife I use in the first few Washboard videos - my all time favorite EDC and holds an edge as well or better than any other knife I own of comparable steel. Admittedly, every Mora I own out of the box has had a slight convex with a hollow in the middle, and ofttimes a secondary bevel - hit or miss.

Martin

IJO is a relatively large maker. I never bought one that was not very sharp. I never bought one without a small secondary bevel - that they told me was intentionally created. It has been 5-6 years, and their plan is to meet customer desires.

A few years ago the UK bushcraft forum did a test of a few factory knives, and an IJO was judged best. The tester then commented, in substance, that he could not wait to remove the secondary bevel so the knife had a "proper" bushcraft "Scandi" edge.

Whatever works for you.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Moras use a slight hollow grind to ensure that there's no convexing in grinding so that when sharpening the shoulder and edge both contact the stone as intended. They know it'll quickly convert that way. The secondary microbevel is deliberately applied to help stabilize the edge for general use, but it's intended for you to zero the bevel when sharpening and then re-apply the microbevel with a couple light strokes per side at a slightly lifted angle. This keeps the microbevel from getting bigger and bigger as you sharpen into the grind, which eventually turn it into a conventional saber grind. The only knives that there is deliberately no microbevel on are their dedicated carving models.

 

[HeavyHanded]

IJO is a relatively large maker. I never bought one that was not very sharp. I never bought one without a small secondary bevel - that they told me was intentionally created. It has been 5-6 years, and their plan is to meet customer desires.

A few years ago the UK bushcraft forum did a test of a few factory knives, and an IJO was judged best. The tester then commented, in substance, that he could not wait to remove the secondary bevel so the knife had a "proper" bushcraft "Scandi" edge.

Whatever works for you.

Hey, if you've spoken to someone at the factory you've got more to go on than myself. Ragnar claims they sometimes come with a secondary bevel, Kellam didn't even go into that much detail. In any event, am glad mine came as they did, now I know not to expect that should I buy another of their products. Whatever the case, I run all my Scandis with no secondary bevel and very slight convex, only the slightest bit more than the minimum I can manage freehand, and that depends on the original angle. As they get down below 24* seems to be the tipping point for general utility, but if they run at 26 or so, that works for me very well.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Nice-looking knife.

As you probably know, Kellam is a retailer as opposed to a maker.

To be clearer, what IJO was doing several years ago may not be what they are doing now. If the customer demand is for "Scandi," I am sure that is what IJO will produce. Same for some, but not all, custom makers.