Question about sliding forge weld

D

DaQo'tah Forge

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The problem:
On my very first in my life attempt to forge weld, the sections of bandsaw blade and packing straps kind of slid to the left and right.

The set up:
I wish to learn how to do a forge weld using some old band saw blades and some straps that I get free. The band saw blade is cut to one-foot length, as are the straps. I ark-welded the ends and then welded a rod to one end as a handle.

I heated in my Whisper 3-burner to a good welding heat.
Fluxed with Twenty Mule team,
Heated again to a welding heat as shown by the way a coat hanger wire wants to stick to it,
I take the steel to my anvil and hit with my 10# hammer.

Even at the 1st strike the pieces of steel seem to be sliding around and not laying down to form a nice bar. The different pieces of saw blade and strapping seem to not stick and seem to be wet and slippery.

The question:
What when wrong?
 
i havent forge welded much, but the way i learned was to heat the steel to a dull red, flux (i used 20 mule tem borax soap), put in the forge ( i use propane) til the borax starts dancing on the steel, take it out and quickly put it on my anvil (right next to the forge so i only have to pull out the steel and twist slightly to get it on the anvil), and strike very lightly with my 2 lb hammer to make the pieces stick, after the pieces stick i can go ahead and forge as if it was one piece ( smack it hard :D ).


edit: my biggest problem at first was hitting it too hard to make it stick. i had to learn to hit it gently enough to make it stick.
 
Terry is right, you want to flux at a much lower heat and weld with lighter hammer blows at a welding heat. Make sure the saw blades are carbon steel and not bimetal blades. Also cut all your pieces 4'' or 5'' long instead of 12'' and it will be alot easier to weld by hand, I have made a whole lot of damascus and I've never done a 12'' billet. I have done some 8'' billets and they were a pain, most of mine are either 4'' or 6'' by 1 1/2'' and 3'' to 4'' tall and I use a 100# Little Giant power hammer. It is alot of fun though when everything goes right :D

Don Hanson lll
 
okay,,right there I see a problem with my try...

For I use a big cut-down heavy sledge hammer...I cut the long handle off a 10 lb sledge to use.

The reason I thought this was the way to go comes from a book that I have that shows a guy setting the weld as I hope to do...In the photo there are sparks going all over.

When I smack the steel with my 10#er, I am stunned at the sparks!
(very cool)

Next time I will try to use the smaller normal size sledge hammer and see what happens.

Also, I didnt wash the steel,,,nor sand it in any ways,,Do you guys do stuff to clean the steel before you weld it on the ends?
 
sunfisherguy...

just got your post here as I posted mine,,,
I have more questions. You say my foot long pile is too long?..good to hear. I was thinking that too as I started in but due to the photos in the books I have I was not sure how long things start out at.

My Problem:
lets say next time I follow your advice and cut things so that i have each section of bandsaw blade and strap around 5 inches...The next question I have came when I heated the steel for the first time in my forge. The sections of steel started to move and push around,,,the whole thing got shorter but wider. It was like the different sections of steel were reacting to the heat and moveing away from eachother in different ways.

My pile of steel sheets started out about 1/2 inch thick, but within moments of hitting the forge it grew thicker as each sheet of steel seemed to pull away from others....(Know what I mean?)

QUESTION:
was that normal?
 
The only thing I grind off the steel before I weld it up is mill scale and that is usualy found on hot rolled bar stock, your band saw and strapping shouldn't have any scale on them, rust, oil or even paint is not a problem but mill scale is. Just keep at it and you'll get the hang of it.

Don
 
I just read my last post,,not sure even I understood what Im saying...

I will try again to explane:
In you mind....grab a magazene at the top and lower end. now begin to push the two ends of the mag to the center and you will notice that the pages of the mag will bunch up and kinda swell as each page is slightly separated for others...

Thats what my pile of steel looked like at I heated it for the first time....the steel layers sorta separated . the length of the whole bundle got shorter....It was still welded at the top and bottom,,,but the whole thing was somehow getting shorter and this was causeing the different sheets to bunch up and separate from each other in the middle....
 
It is normal for thin layers like that to pull away from each other. You can pull your billet out and lightly tap them back together or you can wrap wire around the billet to hold it together but remember when you start to see any color in the steel put some flux on it, this will keep the steel from scaling up and it will weld better, you can tap the layers back together everytime you pull it out to flux, this will help. You want to keep the billet tight and fluxed up while your heating it, especially these thin layers.

Don
 
Another way to hold your layers tight together is run a weld bead up either side of the billet in the middle while it's clamped together tightly after the ends have been welded up.
Also if you make your billet say 4 or 5'' long then you can make it thicker say 1'' or 1 1/2'' tall and have twice as many layers and the same amount of steel as your longer billet but much easier to weld up.

Don
 
One thing that helped me was when Bruce Evans gave me a hands-on on forge welding his "Frontier Damascus".

Take a piece of file or such that is two or three inches long by about an inch wide by about a 1/4" thick, weld a handle to it, grind the teeth off so you won't get trapped flux, put it in the forge and bring to a low red heat, flux, and put a piece of saw blade on top that is slightly smaller than the first piece, put in the forge and when it's ready start hitting lightly from the center making overlaping circles till it's welded. Keep stacking differant steels up like a pirimid till you have five or six layers, then draw out into a bar and fold, weld and draw out, fold and weld, and so on till you have the layer count you want. Done this way teaches good hammer control and exactly what amount of force is required to weld, and you have to watch the billit as pieces flooting on top of the borax will slide off if not leval. It can make some interesting patterns too. Do a couple like this even if you don't draw them out and re-weld, there good for hammer control, especialy when trying to weld a ball bearing trying to roll around on top of the billit! It can be a lot of fun also, mixing in ball bearings, case hardened roller bearings, saw blades, rake teeth, old wrenches, nails, a piece of an old gun, a knife blade that cracked or was mis ground(you'll make a knife one way or anouther!), ect. Just try to keep the carbon content up and use a good guess as to what the steel is and mix acordingly, saw blade on top of file, ect.

I use a ten pound hammer(short handles sledge) to weld with, but I let the weight of the hammer do the work, no real pounding till the billets welded, and sometimes it takes me a couple of heats if its a big billit.

I have noticed that 15&20 and L-6 don't deform as easily as 1084 and 1095, so I start with thicker sections of 1084 so after I get a high layer count the layers are about the same thickness.

If you've got a real smooth anvil you probably won't need to grind, just forge flat, and a little water on the anvil will make slag and scale explod off the billit, just wear eye protection. I've got a pretty rough anvil and my power hammer dies are a little rough so I grind to clean steel everytime, even between folds to prevent inclusions.

Hope this helps,

Will
 
What sunfish said. This is how I do it.

After you've cleaned the bandsaw/banding material clamp them up in a vise. Weld the handle on, weld a couple beads across the layers, each side of the billet. Don't burn these beads in very deep, you want to be able to grind them out after your billet is solid.

Let the last bead be close to the end of the billet, but DO NOT weld the end of the billet opposite the handle.
You have to leave somwhere for the metal to move, when it gets hot.

You can do the same thing with bailing wire, to hold the billet together.

Somwhere on the net IIRC a smith took some banding and bandsaw and did a cannister weld. Piece of suare tubeing packed with the layers of the material and a squirt of wd40 to burn the oxy. Leave a weep hole for the burn out.
 
A 10lb sledge might be too heavy for setting the welds. The problem may be that you are hitting the initial billet too hard for a successful weld.

Use lighter taps until the billet is welded and thenyou can heavy hammer to draw the steel but always stay at welding heat.
 
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