Question for astronomy and physics buffs

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Since the sun's mass is being constantly reduced by the burning of gases (and the resulting energy output), why do the planets of our solar system maintain the same distance from the sun despite the gradual reduction of the sun's gravity?

Is the effect negated by some other physical phenomenon?

Or is their distance from the sun in fact constantly increasing and we don't notice the effect (changing climate) because the percentage of its total mass the sun loses per year is miniscule?

This is not trick question or anything, I'm just curious.
 
E=MC squared. Although the sun's light is in fact produced by changing matter into energy, the amount of matter needed to make all that energy is so tiny the loss of mass is insignificant. :cool:
 
Um, yeah. What Cougar said. :D
 
Also, the sun's mass is something like 99% of the mass of the entire system to begin with.
 
So the effect of planets drifting away from the sun does indeed exist, but it's too insignificant to measure?
 
Quiet Storm said:
So the effect of planets drifting away from the sun does indeed exist, but it's too insignificant to measure?

What you also have to take into account is the fact that the Earth is probably slowing in it's orbit ever so slowly which means it would tend to fall into the sun which would have the effect of keeping it nearer. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing.
 
By the time our sun burns up it's nuclear fuel and goes into a nova state (it's not big enough to do a violent supernova explosion) the planets will still be in pretty much the same orbits.
As I recall, it's felt that the sun will expand into a red-giant, swelling out past the orbit of Earth.
Safety note; best to leave prior to this event. (some billions of years in the future)
 
Well, if my understanding is correct--and for those of you who may have read any of my earlier postings, you know it may not be :confused: --the planetary orbits are a delicate balance between being pulled into the sun by its enormous gravity well, and flying off into space because of the laws of motion and such...

Here, these folks put it a bit better:

"centripetal force and centrifugal force, action-reaction force pair associated with circular motion. According to Newton's first law of motion, a moving body travels along a straight path with constant speed (i.e., has constant velocity) unless it is acted on by an outside force. For circular motion to occur there must be a constant force acting on a body, pushing it toward the center of the circular path. This force is the centripetal (“center-seeking”) force. For a planet orbiting the sun, the force is gravitational; for an object twirled on a string, the force is mechanical; for an electron orbiting an atom, it is electrical. The magnitude F of the centripetal force is equal to the mass m of the body times its velocity squared v 2 divided by the radius r of its path: F=mv2/r. According to Newton's third law of motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The centripetal force, the action, is balanced by a reaction force, the centrifugal (“center-fleeing”) force. The two forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The centrifugal force does not act on the body in motion; the only force acting on the body in motion is the centripetal force. The centrifugal force acts on the source of the centripetal force to displace it radially from the center of the path. Thus, in twirling a mass on a string, the centripetal force transmitted by the string pulls in on the mass to keep it in its circular path, while the centrifugal force transmitted by the string pulls outward on its point of attachment at the center of the path. The centrifugal force is often mistakenly thought to cause a body to fly out of its circular path when it is released; rather, it is the removal of the centripetal force that allows the body to travel in a straight line as required by Newton's first law. If there were in fact a force acting to force the body out of its circular path, its path when released would not be the straight tangential course that is always observed.

--from this link to an encyclopedia article
 
For comparison, about one gram of matter was turned into energy above Hiroshima.
 
The Sun does eject mass, as the Solar Wind. It's much less that that consumed in fusion, but the variability in the solar wind is what causes magnetic storms and makes the aurora pretty ;)
(Of course this radiation can be fatal outside the Earth's magnetic field and atmosphere, so proper precautions must be taken.)
 
Quiet Storm said:
So the effect of planets drifting away from the sun does indeed exist, but it's too insignificant to measure?

In our timeframe - it happens all the time though. Moon is running further and further away from the Earth as well, causing it to gradually slow down. It's just taht we're not going to witness either of those things 'cause, as mwerner said, other factors will affect Earth sooner than cold dead Sun allowing planets to slowly drift away and slow down would. Sh*t happens ... even to planets :D
 
Another point to bear in mind is it isnt 'burning' gasses its nuclear fusion. ie 2 hydrogen atoms turning to one helium atom with a resultant release of energy. While you dont get anything for nothing, the mass isnt being reduced anywhere near as fast as if it were hydrogen being 'burnt' because when the two hydrogen atoms have reacted and released their energy the helium atom is still left, the weight of which is pretty close to the weight of the initial two atoms of hydrogen that made it.

Its not even as simple as that, because the gravitational field of an object is related to its mass and density, hydrogen should be denser than helium so as more helium undergoes fission and turns into hydrogen the sun will become denser which will change its gravitaional charachteristics again.
 
A google search for "main sequence stars" (without quotes) should get plenty of info on the subject.

Luis
 
Kalindras said:
Well, if my understanding is correct--and for those of you who may have read any of my earlier postings, you know it may not be --the planetary orbits are a delicate balance between being pulled into the sun by its enormous gravity well, and flying off into space because of the laws of motion and such...

It is a balance, but hardly a delicate one. The earth's orbit was probably not affected by the asteroid that killed all the dinosaurs, for example. The energy it would take make minor changes in the orbit is too huge.
 
I'd say the loss of solar mass is negligeable, and the resulting weakening of the solar gravity field (which should reslut in orbits becoming longer and more "elliptical") is tiny. The planets are slowing too, because of tidal forces and because they have to sail through the solar wind.
The orbits of the planets are quite stable given a decent tolerance, and very chaotic in the same time. In general, a solar system with more than one planet is not completly stable. I'd say if you look cloesly, Earth's orbit is far from the nice ellipse you might expect.
 
faramir said:
Moon is running further and further away from the Earth as well, causing it to gradually slow down.

Why does the increasing distance also slow it down? Shouldn't it maintain its speed despite the wider orbit (resulting in days that very slowly, but consistently become longer)?
 
The moon is slowing down due to tidal forces. As it slows down its orbit gets wider. The time of a lunar month also gets longer.

If the sun were burning (oxidizing) it would not change mass at all since the combustion products would weigh as much as the fuel and oxidizer did in the first place. Since we are talking about nuclear reactions we do have mass defect issues. The helium nuclei don't weigh as much as the original hydrogen did. The mass of the sun is declining, just not very fast.
 
When the Sun converts mass to energy, do the orbits of the planets change?
If I'm correct, fusion reactions convert some mass into energy. Shouldn't this conversion reduce the gravitational "pull" (or warping) of the object undergoing the reaction? So, in the case of our Sun shouldn't the planets' orbits be slightly different over time since the mass of the Sun is gradually being reduced by fusion? I understand that the effect would be very slight over observable time and might be swamped by the angular momentum of the orbiting bodies.

Yes, the mass of the Sun is indeed being reduced due to nuclear fusion processes in the Sun's core, which convert part of the mass into energy. (This energy is eventually radiated away in the form of light from the Sun's surface.) However, the effect on the orbits of the planets is very small and would not be measurable over any reasonable time period.

One way we can see that this must be a small effect is to look at the main fusion reactions which produce the Sun's energy, in which four hydrogen atoms are transformed into one helium atom. If you look at a periodic table, you will see that one helium atom has about 0.7% less mass than four hydrogen atoms combined -- this "missing mass" is what gets converted into energy. Therefore, at the absolute most, only 0.7% of the Sun's mass can get converted, and this takes place over the entire 10 billion year lifetime of the Sun. So it must be a very small effect. (In actuality, not all of the Sun's mass is hydrogen to start with, and only the mass in the inner core of the Sun gets hot enough to undergo fusion reactions, so we really only expect around 0.07% of the mass to get converted.)

It is also easy to directly calculate the rate at which the Sun converts mass to energy. Start with Einstein's famous formula:

E = M c2

where E is the energy produced, M is the mass that gets converted and c is the speed of light (3 x 108 meters/second). It is easy to extend this formula to find the rate at which energy is produced:

(rate at which E is produced) = (rate at which M disappears) x c2

The rate at which the Sun produces energy is equal to the rate at which it emits energy from its surface (its luminosity), which is around 3.8 x 1026 Watts -- this number can be determined from measurements of how bright the Sun appears from Earth as well as its distance from us. Plugging this into the above formula tells us that the Sun loses around 4,200,000,000 kilograms every second!

This sounds like a lot, but compared to the total mass of the Sun (2 x 1030 kilograms), it actually isn't that much. For example, let's say we want to measure the effect of this mass loss over 100 years. In that time, the Sun will have lost 1.3 x 1019 kilograms due to the fusion reactions, which is still a very tiny fraction of the Sun's total mass (6.6 x 10-12, or about 6.6 parts in a trillion!).

How does this affect the orbits of the planets? Intuitively, if we imagine a planet orbiting the Sun at some speed, as the Sun loses mass its gravitational pull on the planet will weaken, so it will have trouble keeping it in the same orbit. The planet's velocity will therefore take it further away from the Sun, and the orbital separation between the Sun and planet will increase.

The formula that governs this situation turns out to be that the orbital separation is proportional to 1 divided by the Sun's mass -- this can be derived from the fact that the Sun-planet system must conserve its angular momentum as the Sun loses mass. The orbital period of the planet, meanwhile, is proportional to 1 divided by the Sun's mass squared.

For small percentage changes in the Sun's mass (as we are considering here), all the above formulas reduce to a nice simple approximation: For every percentage decrease in the Sun's mass, the orbital separation of the planet will increase by the same percentage, and the orbital period of the planet will increase by twice the percentage.

Above, we said that in 100 years, the Sun's mass will decrease by 6.6 parts in a trillion. Therefore, the orbital separation of the planet will increase by 6.6 parts in a trillion and the orbital period will increase by 13.2 parts in a trillion. If the planet in question is the Earth (whose orbital separation from the Sun is around 150,000,000 kilometers and whose orbital period is 1 year), the Earth-Sun separation will increase by about 1 meter, and the orbital period will increase by about 0.4 milliseconds! Neither of these values is large enough for us to be able to detect.

I'm not sure exactly how long we'd have to wait to see a measurable effect in the Earth-Sun orbit. Probably, there are other effects which overwhelm this one and would make it difficult or impossible to detect, even over very long time periods -- for example, changes in the Earth's orbit due to perturbations from other planets. The Sun's mass is also changing due to other effects (such as the solar wind), but over the long run these are probably smaller than the Sun's mass loss due to fusion (as pointed out in another Ask an Astronomer site's answer to this question).

Overall, I think it is safe to conclude that (a) there will be no noticeable effect on the planets' orbits over anything resembling a human lifetime, and (b) there will be a noticeable effect over timescales approaching the lifetime of the Sun, since the Sun will lose around 0.07% of its mass over that time period, leading to a change in the Earth's orbital period of about half a day.
 
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=563

Bat Girl said:
When the Sun converts mass to energy, do the orbits of the planets change?
If I'm correct, fusion reactions convert some mass into energy. Shouldn't this conversion reduce the gravitational "pull" (or warping) of the object undergoing the reaction? So, in the case of our Sun shouldn't the planets' orbits be slightly different over time since the mass of the Sun is gradually being reduced by fusion? I understand that the effect would be very slight over observable time and might be swamped by the angular momentum of the orbiting bodies.

Yes, the mass of the Sun is indeed being reduced due to nuclear fusion processes in the Sun's core, which convert part of the mass into energy. (This energy is eventually radiated away in the form of light from the Sun's surface.) However, the effect on the orbits of the planets is very small and would not be measurable over any reasonable time period.

One way we can see that this must be a small effect is to look at the main fusion reactions which produce the Sun's energy, in which four hydrogen atoms are transformed into one helium atom. If you look at a periodic table, you will see that one helium atom has about 0.7% less mass than four hydrogen atoms combined -- this "missing mass" is what gets converted into energy. Therefore, at the absolute most, only 0.7% of the Sun's mass can get converted, and this takes place over the entire 10 billion year lifetime of the Sun. So it must be a very small effect. (In actuality, not all of the Sun's mass is hydrogen to start with, and only the mass in the inner core of the Sun gets hot enough to undergo fusion reactions, so we really only expect around 0.07% of the mass to get converted.)

It is also easy to directly calculate the rate at which the Sun converts mass to energy. Start with Einstein's famous formula:

E = M c2

where E is the energy produced, M is the mass that gets converted and c is the speed of light (3 x 108 meters/second). It is easy to extend this formula to find the rate at which energy is produced:

(rate at which E is produced) = (rate at which M disappears) x c2

The rate at which the Sun produces energy is equal to the rate at which it emits energy from its surface (its luminosity), which is around 3.8 x 1026 Watts -- this number can be determined from measurements of how bright the Sun appears from Earth as well as its distance from us. Plugging this into the above formula tells us that the Sun loses around 4,200,000,000 kilograms every second!

This sounds like a lot, but compared to the total mass of the Sun (2 x 1030 kilograms), it actually isn't that much. For example, let's say we want to measure the effect of this mass loss over 100 years. In that time, the Sun will have lost 1.3 x 1019 kilograms due to the fusion reactions, which is still a very tiny fraction of the Sun's total mass (6.6 x 10-12, or about 6.6 parts in a trillion!).

How does this affect the orbits of the planets? Intuitively, if we imagine a planet orbiting the Sun at some speed, as the Sun loses mass its gravitational pull on the planet will weaken, so it will have trouble keeping it in the same orbit. The planet's velocity will therefore take it further away from the Sun, and the orbital separation between the Sun and planet will increase.

The formula that governs this situation turns out to be that the orbital separation is proportional to 1 divided by the Sun's mass -- this can be derived from the fact that the Sun-planet system must conserve its angular momentum as the Sun loses mass. The orbital period of the planet, meanwhile, is proportional to 1 divided by the Sun's mass squared.

For small percentage changes in the Sun's mass (as we are considering here), all the above formulas reduce to a nice simple approximation: For every percentage decrease in the Sun's mass, the orbital separation of the planet will increase by the same percentage, and the orbital period of the planet will increase by twice the percentage.

Above, we said that in 100 years, the Sun's mass will decrease by 6.6 parts in a trillion. Therefore, the orbital separation of the planet will increase by 6.6 parts in a trillion and the orbital period will increase by 13.2 parts in a trillion. If the planet in question is the Earth (whose orbital separation from the Sun is around 150,000,000 kilometers and whose orbital period is 1 year), the Earth-Sun separation will increase by about 1 meter, and the orbital period will increase by about 0.4 milliseconds! Neither of these values is large enough for us to be able to detect.

I'm not sure exactly how long we'd have to wait to see a measurable effect in the Earth-Sun orbit. Probably, there are other effects which overwhelm this one and would make it difficult or impossible to detect, even over very long time periods -- for example, changes in the Earth's orbit due to perturbations from other planets. The Sun's mass is also changing due to other effects (such as the solar wind), but over the long run these are probably smaller than the Sun's mass loss due to fusion (as pointed out in another Ask an Astronomer site's answer to this question).

Overall, I think it is safe to conclude that (a) there will be no noticeable effect on the planets' orbits over anything resembling a human lifetime, and (b) there will be a noticeable effect over timescales approaching the lifetime of the Sun, since the Sun will lose around 0.07% of its mass over that time period, leading to a change in the Earth's orbital period of about half a day.
 
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