Question for makers using a TapMatic

STR

STR

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Ok here is the story.

Bought a 30x Tapmatic on ebay used in a buy it now for a total of $139.80 after shipping. Sent it off to TapMatic for rebuild and got Jim's professional clean bill of health and they mailed it back after paying a $339.28 bill for rebuilding basically all of it. This was early March of this year by the time I got it back repaired. Been using it ever since and its worked flawlessly for me until today and I've loved it. I thought I'd found heaven until today.

Now all the sudden with no changes on my part still using it mounted just as it was the last time I used it for the same thickness material successfully I tried to use it today and having made no changes in how I do things or what I'm threading its breaking taps left and right. Ten! You read that right. Ten taps broken today and one other one on a different day. The torque adjustment cap is all the way back as far as it goes. As an experiment I drilled number 47 holes for threading the 2-56 screws. Still broke taps even with holes bigger than I need to use and bigger than I've ever used before eithe rby hand or by machine!

So my question to anyone that has anything, anything at all. What the hell is going on? I've never broken two taps in a row even doing it by hand let alone ten! Now part of this was my own stubbornness trying to figure out what was the matter after speaking with Jim on the phone. Most broke in the same piece (a .160 thickness slab of titanium which is not unusual for me to be using) and I have the stop set so it won't even thread all the way through.

I'm at a loss here so before I throw the thing against the wall or take it out for target practice......input please!

STR
 
Hi STR,

All I can do is throw some possibilities at ya :confused:

  • Is your tap spinning true ? The little rubber/steel rib collet may have taken a crap, allowing for your tap to run out
  • This next possibility came up in a discussion similar to this. You mentioned that most of the taps broke in a piece of .160 TI. Most, if not all of the Ti we as knifemakers use is reclaimed stock. Who knows what process' were done to it prior to you and I getting it. Hard spots are a distinct possibility as is the fact it might/could be Beta Ti ............ maybe :confused:
  • do you have a dedicated machine for your 30X ? Could it have moved and the table is now sitting cockeyed ?
  • Same goes for the drilling. Are the holes you drilled in the Ti on the drill press/mill straight ? Crooked holes will break taps in a heartbeat, especially in Ti
Since you're an experienced knifemaker familiar with machining procedures I'll assume you have a nice CS on the hole prior to tapping and are using a good cutting oil :thumbup:

That's all I got for ya right now STR. If I can think of anything else I'll give you a holler ;)
 
Thanks David. The machine is dedicated just for the tapmatic yes. I'll recheck everything and see how it looks today for straight including the table and clamp set up as well as the drilling attachment hitting it fresh. I have had the ti slab soaking in swimming pool acid overnight so hopefully I can rinse it off and pick back up where I left off when it messed up and get the taps out of there if anything is left at all. The thought that it was this specific titanium has occurred to me. All these slabs cut out for me have been very noisy threading them compared to anything else I've used lately. Not sure but that may be part of it if not a huge part of what is going on. To my knowledge nothing changed but again I'll double check both my press and my mill dedicated to the tapmatic.

STR
 
Yeah, before giving up, I'd try tapping a piece of 1018 CRS or something and see how it does in that. Tapping 180,000 PSI titanium (hard 6-6-4 for example) is a pill, but they do make special taps for that.

A high end tapping fluid might help. I really like Molydee, by Castrol.
 
STR, been there, done that !!
In my case, I tracked the problem down to (I think) a bad batch of drills. They were dulling quickly, and also leaving a burr at the exit site, the tap was then snapping as soon as the tapered end cleared the hole. I changed to cobalt drills, and slowed my mini-mill down to a crawl(I can count the rpms by eye) and that seems to have fixed the problem.
Now anytime the drill creaks in the titanium i swap it for a fresh one. And I always clean off any burrs before tapping.
Granted this is the result of hindsight problem solving, but seems to make sense -and it works.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
Don
www.Bellknives.com
 
Well I believe after analyzing the crap out each thing I do, going over each piece of equipment and checking not only the machines but my set up for true and finally getting smart enough to look at the taps themselves that I've figured it out.

This picture says it all IMO. I found what I thought was some super life taps from Micro Fasteners back in 07. These are HSS taps in plug type for 2-56. They have worked flawless for me. Super life. I bought four back in April 07 and still have two of that original four. What I did not realize is that of that original four using order number TAP02 that Microfasteners sold me a different product under the same order number later that same year in Aug and again in Nov when I bought 15 and 8 more of them to have them on hand. What happened is that instead of grabbing the baggy that still had two of the original stock they shipped me in it that I grabbed one of the other bags which is the longer one below. Buying in bulk is not uncommon with me really. When I find something I like I end it and get what I can afford then and there even if I won't need them right away and have done that for years buying bulk of anything I use a lot or like. I've ordered HSS taps from Micro Fasteners three times, twice just getting more to have them but not needing them. Needless to say I still have them minus the ones I broke of course. Twice they sold me a different product than the one I bought first time around that sold me on them in the first place. Those short stocky little taps were great for me and have held up great dulling before breaking unlike the others I have used.

Note the difference here in the pictures. Both are HSS 2-56. Both are plug taps. Both are order number TAP02 and both were $5.80 each.

These longer ones (2.83" vs 1.82" for the good ones according to my micrometer) are worthless! You can't even make a half turn with these crappy things even in #46 holes which still breaks them off and that hole is damn near big enough for the screw to slide through! I stuck one of the original shorter taps in my Tapmatic and guess what? It is right back to normally threading as it always did! I've threaded ten folders with it this morning alone all of them thicker slab models!

I have bought a lot of stuff from Micro Fasteners over the years. Can't say its ever amounted to a bunch of money but I do support them and I do use some of their longer 2-56, 4-40 and 6-32 screws among other things. I have written them to discuss this even though I have had the taps new in bags since early, mid and late 07 when they shipped them. I also have all my reciepts since I keep everything being the pack rat that I am.

If nothing else then at the least I expressed my anger that they swapped product on me without my knowledge of it after I decided they were worth having more of but honestly this has happened with all the suppliers from time to time. If nothing else I have figured out what is going on to my satisfaction and its not the tapmatic or me, its the damn threaders!

STR
 
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By the way I use the Dry Cut recommended by Tapmatic for the lube. Never used the Molydee. I have heard some guys talk about it. Where you buying that? Have you used the Dry Cut? Just curious of any input there. Thanks

STR
 
Move on to thread forming taps, and be done with it....

$10 from Enco, and you'll throw 'em away after a couple thousand holes, just because you think you should....

You can get the Moly-Dee from them too.
 
Brian Fellhoelter Knives said:
Move on to thread forming taps, and be done with it....

$10 from Enco, and you'll throw 'em away after a couple thousand holes, just because you think you should....

You can get the Moly-Dee from them too.
Click to expand...

Hey Brian. Nice to see you again.

Hope things are well for you. Heard you guys were a hit at the Blade Show this year. Good to hear. I just ordered a couple thread forming taps from MSC after speaking to an engineer at length from Balax. I'm hoping those do what I like from now on with little sign of trouble. I'll try the Molydee.

Thanks.

STR
 
Hey Brian, you using a number 47 with your taps or #48?

Reason I ask is because the engineer I spoke with told me to move up to the #47 for thread forming taps. Up from the #48 I've been using. Just curious if you agree.

Thanks Oh yeah and long overdue but thanks for telling me years ago about Tapmatic. Even with the nightmare I had the other day with it I still can't imagine why I waited so long on that.

Live and learn though. ;)

STR
 
I use #49 drill, but have used 48 with good results! i have been using the same thread forming tap for almost a full year.., seriously!!
 
STR said:
Hey Brian. Nice to see you again.

Hope things are well for you. Heard you guys were a hit at the Blade Show this year. Good to hear. I just ordered a couple thread forming taps from MSC after speaking to an engineer at length from Balax. I'm hoping those do what I like from now on with little sign of trouble. I'll try the Molydee.

Thanks.

STR
Click to expand...
Things are pretty good, we did quite well @ Blade...
You'll like those forming taps.

STR said:
Hey Brian, you using a number 47 with your taps or #48?

Reason I ask is because the engineer I spoke with told me to move up to the #47 for thread forming taps. Up from the #48 I've been using. Just curious if you agree.

Thanks Oh yeah and long overdue but thanks for telling me years ago about Tapmatic. Even with the nightmare I had the other day with it I still can't imagine why I waited so long on that.

Live and learn though. ;)

STR
Click to expand...
If I was gonna use a # drill, I'd use the 47.
I actually use a stubby cobalt 5/64" which is in between 47 and 48 in theory, but we are only talking tenths here...
Depending on how you drill a hole, you can get variations in hole size with the same drill.
Happy to hear the Tapmatic is working out for you.
Hard to imagine working without one now isn't it?

I've had a bunch of folks tell me that the holes I'm drilling are too large, I won't get enough thread, etc...
I did some testing with 1/16" Ti, a 5/64" drill, and a forming tap.
If I torque to the failure point with a stainless button head screw, I twist the head of the screw off before the threads fail.
Can't imagine why I'd need a thread any stronger than that...
 
Brian Fellhoelter Knives said:
Things are pretty good, we did quite well @ Blade...
You'll like those forming taps.


If I was gonna use a # drill, I'd use the 47.
I actually use a stubby cobalt 5/64" which is in between 47 and 48 in theory, but we are only talking tenths here...
Depending on how you drill a hole, you can get variations in hole size with the same drill.
Happy to hear the Tapmatic is working out for you.
Hard to imagine working without one now isn't it?

I've had a bunch of folks tell me that the holes I'm drilling are too large, I won't get enough thread, etc...
I did some testing with 1/16" Ti, a 5/64" drill, and a forming tap.
If I torque to the failure point with a stainless button head screw, I twist the head of the screw off before the threads fail.
Can't imagine why I'd need a thread any stronger than that...
Click to expand...

Funny. I did that yesterday with a 2-56 button head in a threaded #47 hole in a .160 slab of titanium just to make sure it was going to hold for me and make myself feel better about it before putting it in my work. I think in the thicker slabs that the deeper you go the less and less likely a 47 or 5/64 would ever give you trouble but I'm not sure in thinner stock like liner locks. I might, out of curiosity test some in .050 stock today just to see how that works compared to the thicker ones.

The 5/64 Cobalt makes that drill appealing if you are drilling titanium so I may look at that one down the road for my slab frame locks just because its Cobalt and will last longer. I've got some HSS #47 drills I've had a while I'll probably use until they are trashed. #47=.0785 5/64=.0781 so I'm sure both will work just fine. I feel better about it after getting this info from two people now. I figured the engineer that designs and builds taps would know but its always nice to get feedback from other folks using titanium because in my experience a lot of these engineers, designers and sales people at tech. help don't seem to realize that ti is a different animal or know enough about knife making to really help. Some of them just spout off the book you know? "Use a #50 for 2-56 and all that" and we all know what can happen doing that with the galling effect of ti the way it hugs taps.

Anyway, thanks guys.

STR
 
I think if you can break the head off the screw without anything stripping, you probably have enough thread engagement.

You always use a larger hole for forming taps - that isn't cheating. Try to stick that drill bit back into that hole after threading it - it won't fit because the minor diameter shrinks down with a forming tap.

Does anybody here mill their threads? I've milled plenty of 4-40 4-48, but I've never tried a 2-56. That's such a tiny cutter...
 
Thanks everyone. I am satisfied that the number 47 is working great! Its easier threading that size by hand too so its a given for me at this point that it works flawlessly. Brian thanks for all the info. Nathan, Balibalistic, Don, and Dave thanks to you as well. I really appreciate it. :thumbup:

Brian, by the way, I wasn't doubting your word about the button head test on ti what happened was I simply missed the part about it being 1/16" thick stock you tested until just before posting this. Had I seen that I wouldn't have even tested the 47 on .050 pocket clip stock. :D Daaahhhhh!

STR
 
Assure yourself, and test anyways....
YMMV

It's always better to say "I have...." than "I have heard that....."
 
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