Question for Sal about steel liners.

K

Ken Cox

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I have picked up a few Benchmade knives at a local store and some of them have skeletal steel liners.
The liners seem to add something of substance to these knives, but I don't know what.
Perhaps the Axis lock needs steel liners in order to work reliably.

My favorite knife of all time, the Spyderco Native, does not have any sort of liners.
I have carried my GIN-1 Native now forever and it seems as tight and functional as the first day I started generally abusing it.

In discussions about the proposed larger Native, the question of Martial Blade Craft capability came up in association with steel liners.
Steel liners don't seem like they'd add that much price or weight to a knife.
My question has to do with what good qualities or bad qualities steel liners bring to a knife.

If a Native had steel liners, would I find it too thick, too heavy or too expensive, with too little in return?
Would the proposed larger Native require steel liners in order to qualify as an MBC knife?
Or could it function just as well (MBC-wise?) with the molded FRN materials and construction we see in the present Native?
What about titanium liners?

I know Sal has a lot on his plate.
I hope he can get around to answering my questions.

Thanks.
 
Steel liners on the FRN native would probably increase the price. Currently the handle is one piece, to insert liners the handle would need to be two piece, thus two molds instead of one for the handle. Then the liners would need to be cut and the two piece handle would need assembly (extra steel, screws and time). A one piece FRN handle is a real cost savings in a knife. I'll bet that's why the Endura handle is used for Spyderhawk, Matriarch and Endura. On a past thread regarding FRN handles, Glesser indicated that they have had no problems with failure under hard use.
 
Hi Ken. A more complicated question than I can detail at this time. (Blade show coming up).

Liners can and do offer much in some cases and little in others. Some locks need liners, some don't. Then there is nesting vs pins, Steel vs Titan, etc. If the thread is still going and there are areas left untouched, I'll chime in when I get back from the show.

sal
 
Enjoy the show.

I'll revive this thread after the show with some additional questions.

Thanks.
 
Hi Ken, I'll give some of your Q's a shot.

"a few Benchmade knives at a local store and some of them have skeletal steel liners.
The liners seem to add something of substance to these knives, but I don't know what.
Perhaps the Axis lock needs steel liners in order to work reliably".

In my opinion, metal liners can add; mass, stiffness, weight, thickness, smoother surfaces, and strength where those areas need more. There is also the appearance factor, which to many is prime.

If one chooses to add mass, thickness or weight, a liner is a simple way to do that. Bram wanted more mass and a thicker handle in the Gunting so we used thicker scales and a "full" steel liner to serve that need. Some materials are not stiff enough on their own and a steel liner stiffens up the handle. Sometimes a smoother bearing surface can be achieved by using a steel or brass liner. a blade rubbing against G-10 can inhibit "Action". Stength in some areas can also be achieved with liners; steel liners will hold pins or screws more firmly, metal liners make for stronger screw connections for things like clips. Some designs like the Axis and Copmpression locks require dual liners for the required strength to hold pins.


"My favorite knife of all time, the Spyderco Native, does not have any sort of liners.
I have carried my GIN-1 Native now forever and it seems as tight and functional as the first day I started generally abusing it".

The FRN Native doesn't need "steel" liners. We coulod prpobably pick up some sgtrength with liners, but at the cost of thickness and weight.

"In discussions about the proposed larger Native, the question of Martial Blade Craft capability came up in association with steel liners".

MBC lock strength would almost always require a metal liner to meet the required lock strength.

"Steel liners don't seem like they'd add that much price or weight to a knife.
My question has to do with what good qualities or bad qualities steel liners bring to a knife".

They add more cost and weight than you might imagine. If the liner is nested, the weight is less, but the cost is more.

"If a Native had steel liners, would I find it too thick, too heavy or too expensive, with too little in return"?

Unless the liners were nested, it would certainly be thicker and heavier. My philosophy has always been "No more than necessary, and no less than perfect". If a stronger Native is required, a SS version might be the ticket.

"Would the proposed larger Native require steel liners in order to qualify as an MBC knife"?

yes.

"Or could it function just as well (MBC-wise?) with the molded FRN materials and construction we see in the present Native"?

It would probably funtion the same, but it would not have the 200 inch/lbs per inch of blade length that I like in a knife that I say has sufficient lock strength for MBC moves.

"What about titanium liners"?

Titan is lighter than steel, but not as strong. It would add sufficient strength, but at a higher cost for very little reduction in weight.

sal
 
For FRN models I think the most important thing that steel liners bring to the table is mass and weight.

For me plain FRN handles have never felt right in the hand, always felt too light and "fly". Over the years I have had a number of Spyderco FRN handled knives with steel liners and/or steel back spacers, and whilst I have a strong preference for G-10, these FRN/steel combinations have been top notch and feel great in the hand, easilly rivaling G-10.
The latest FRN handled Spyderco I recieved had dual steel liners (thick ones) and an FRN back spacer, and I would have to say that it was one of the most comfortable and right "feeling" handles I have come across in a long time, I would even say it is a contender against the legendary Military in the handle stakes.

I know some might argue that a heavier knife slows down movement, but to be honest unless I was in a knife fight (which I never have been, and hope never to be in), the amount of weight that these steel liners would add to the knife are neglagible (IMHO). For me the benifits vastly out weigh the disadvantages.
 
Yog,
For me, the knife that I have on me when I need to cut something is the best knife. In order for me to carry a knife for EDC I want something lightweight. You speak of metal liners slowing down movements, but I would say that isn't the reason most people apposed to them on FRN handled knives are complaining. The reason is they add weight for carrying in the pocket. Just enough weight where the knife may not be on them when they need it. I agree that they feel better in the hand, but the weight they add to the pocket, and the cost they add to the product is just not worth it IMO.

Note: This is for FRN handled knives only.
-Kevin
 
Hi Morgoth412 - Just for arguments sake.
But would you be carrying that knife at all if you were of the opinion that the handles "felt" cheep and nasty (even if you knew they weren't) :D
 
This is a good point. Many people feel that FRN is cheap and inferior to many other materials. I can understand that. Its lightweight and "plastic" like feeling is def. not as nice as G-10 and Micarta, and some people will not carry it for this reason. Are they wrong for that? Nope

The reason I carry it though is because I find that it works fine for EDC. I have never felt FRN as lacking in strength, and find that it is almost as grippy as G-10 for a fraction of the price.

But yea, I can understand that you wouldn't carry it if you don't like the feel. After all, it is you that has to carry it. If you're going to be burdened carrying something, take along what pleases you.
-Kevin
 
imho FRN handles feel cheap and don't look that great either. I know that these "plastic" handles are practically indestructible under normal use (and can withstand a lot of hard use too) but personally it's just not aethestically appealling to me. Thats why I don't carry them as EDC around the city. But if I go fishing or camping I bring along something with a FRN handle cause I don't care if the the FRN handle gets scratched or wet.
 
Whie there is no doubt that steel liners add some weight, there is the question of how much that weight actually matters.

For example, all of these numbers have been provided by the manufacturers' respective web sites:

Benchmade mini-Griptilian with 2 full liners and 2.9 inch blade: 2.56 oz.

Spyderco Delica with 0 full liners and 3 inch blade: 1.9 oz.

Total difference = .66 oz.

Spyderco Native with 0 full liners and a 3.16 inch blade: 2.4 oz.

Total difference= 0.16 oz.

Considering that a US penny weighs approximately .088 ounces the weight difference could easily be eclipsed by a bit of pocket change.

As I type this I sit here with 8 pennies in my hand, and wonder what it is that people are doing that would cause this small amount of weight to make such a difference that they would be less likely to carry the knife. I would imagine that even a child could carry 8 pennies all day long and not be hindered at all.

I would venture that if the weight of a Delica increased by .66 oz. overnight the owner would continue to carry it and never realize the difference.

Of course, the less than 2 penny difference between the BM 555 and the Native is virtually impossible to notice even if you are looking for it.


While liners may add a little weight they add a lot of strength and rigidity, especially to a FRN design.

I can appreciate the idea of making the knives as light as is practical, but at what point does diminishing returns set in?

Edited to add Native data.
 
Fishbulb,
You raise a good point, but as someone once mentioned on this forum before, I subscribe to the "Formula One" concept. The least amount of possible weight, while not interfering that much with performance. I guess you are right, the weight difference is apparently not that much at all, but I still see no reason for it. The Delica and Native are sturdy enough as is. (IMO)

While you may not agree on the above point Fishbulb, I beleive that you would agree to the fact that it would raise cost. As Sal stated the cost would increase. One of the major selling points of the Native and Delica is that they give very useful blades, with the two of the best steels on the market, for a price that anyone can afford. What other company offers knives between 40 and 50 dollars that feature blades VG-10 and S30V? The purpose of FRN handled knives is that they are durable enough, with great cutting power, for the none-knifenut and knifenut alike to afford.
-Kevin
 
The problem isn't the weight of 8 pennies, it is the weight of 22 pennies (total 1.9oz) vs the weight of 30 (if you add those 8) - a 34% increase in weight.

Carrying a pocketknife is a nuisance when you have keys, change, a wallet, flashlight, pen, cellphone and/or beeper(s), and a myriad other gadgets that everyone is carrying in their pockets these days. A pocketknife is competing for space.

It is like loading a backpack to go hiking. Some people cut off half the handle of their toothbrush. Now that is not much weight there, but it adds up especially when you are lugging it around all day. Hence the parable of "the straw that broke the camel's back"

And since the Delica (using the same example) doesn't need liners by design, why make it more complicated and heavier and more expensive for no gain in performance? The whole advantage of a lockback is that unlike an axis lock or compression lock, it doesn't need dual liners, or even a single liner to function at full strength. If you are going to use dual liners then you might as well switch to a compression lock.
 
Yog,
The latest FRN handled Spyderco I recieved had dual steel liners (thick ones) and an FRN back spacer,
Click to expand...
I'm going through the Spydie line-up out of my head, but can't think of an FRN model with dual steel liners. Which model is this?

Ted
 
Ted
Well both the Vesuvious and the Meerkat have FRN handles and dual steel liners, but neither have an FRN back spacer.

Lets just say this knife had a new type of lock and came in a rather nice wooden box.

BTW - the Meerkat and Vesuvious are my secong and third favourite FRN handles.
 
OK, you made me think. Compression lock and a Phantom lock require dual steel liners. So does a ball bearing lock.

Enjoy your WTC Rescue !
 
I can understand the argument "a small pocket-knife does'nt need to be all that strong", but I don't buy the notion that dual steel liners don't add considerable strength to an FRN (or Zytel) or even a G-10 handle knife.

I disagree with the idea that a Delica with dual steel liners would have no gain in performance, even though it's a lockback.
The liners would give the knife more rigidity and allow more twisting and torqueing.

As for the Compression-lock...
I'll take the lockback over it any day of the week. There's just something about it that is unappealing.
Maybe the ball-lock will be a viable answer to the Axis-lock, but the Compression lock sure is'nt.
 
I don't carry my Native in my pocket because it has fallen out too many times.
I clip my Native inside my trousers waistband, with the belt going over the clip.

I also carry a small flashlight and a Leatherman on my belt, and I don't notice their weight as much as I would if I carried them in my pocket.
To me, the weight of two pennies would not negatively impact my Native.

However, an increase in the cost, due to liners, might have influenced my initial purchase.
The Native remains in my mind the most valuable of all knives, meaning, the most knife for the money.
How much would it cost to give it liners and, if I had a choice between two Natives, one with liners and one without, how much would the difference in price influence my choice?

When it comes to the proposed new Native, the larger one, I would like for it to qualify as an MBC knife.
I carry even my GIN-1 FRN Native as a tool and as a (hope I never need it) self-defense knife.
I think I would have even more confidence in a slightly larger MBC Native, although I cannot imagine the lock on my present Native failing (it simply does not present the proportions for that much leverage).

I certainly would not want my Native to have a thicker handle.
I haven't examined a 3D Native and I don't know how it fits in the hand, but my present Native feels great in the hand and, as I said, it feels great in the waistband of my trousers.

The perfect new Large Native would, in my mind, have no extra thickness other than that proportional to its extra length.
If it required steel liners in order qualify as an MBC knife, I hope that would not push the price beyond what a family man like myself could afford, nor beyond the thickness my waistband will tolerate..
That said, all of the Spyderco knives I have so far examined fit my wallet and my waistband. :)
 
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