So I have committed financial suicide and am addicted to framelocks. I remember a day when a 100 bucks was a world class knife to me next thing I'm doing good spending under 450 for one. I don't know what it is about framelocks maybe they just have more personality I don't know either way I have a question that I've been searching for the answer to but all I come up with is old framelock vs. linerlock threads. My question is about "overtravel" for the lockup. I always see people posting how much lockup a knife has particularly in the for sale area ie. "quarter lockup" or what have you. Is this some sort of indication of wear on the knife or future longevity? I realize that as time goes on and the knife gets used more and more it will travel further over time. I guess what I'm asking is what happens when it goes all the way or almost all the way? I imagine worst case scenario the lockbar touches the other side and from there you'll get a little blade play but not catastrophic failure or anything. Would that be a good guess? Thanks for any info just trying to learn a little more. Anyone had any negative experiences due to "overtravel" thanks again.
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question for the framelock experts
- Thread starter joebobx
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There is a difference between solid lock up and solid lockup with a bit of play. The difference is the play. These are not mutually exclusive.
Generally speaking that is the end of the knives useful life- the bar can be peened to add a little more life, and if one is so inclied and the maufacturer/maker is still in business you can have entire locking side replaced.
Thats a good guess- your spot on, however given enough time in this condition the angles on the mating surfaces can change and produce a condition in which the bar is more likely to slip or be pushed out of the lock position if there is significant load place on the spine of the blade.
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Yep, you've got it right.
Most people prefer a new framelock to engage less than halfway, so there's room for wear over time.
With the materials that are available these days, you're unlikely to see your lock travel all the way across in your lifetime (that is, due to normal wear & tear).
Should it travel all the way over at some point, you're not looking at any sort of catastrophic failure, just the potential for some up/down blade play.
Hope this helps...
Most people prefer a new framelock to engage less than halfway, so there's room for wear over time.
With the materials that are available these days, you're unlikely to see your lock travel all the way across in your lifetime (that is, due to normal wear & tear).
Should it travel all the way over at some point, you're not looking at any sort of catastrophic failure, just the potential for some up/down blade play.
Hope this helps...
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Another area to look at is the stop pin , I have seen folders , frame and linerlocks with a beat to snot stop pin , replacing the stop pin can help , or having a slightly larger stop pin made can make up for the lockup on a worn lock .
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I wonder if it is possible to do a coating, similar to electoless nickel, to get the geometry back.
Seems to me the blade or the bar could take a few mils to makeup for the wear.
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That's a very good idea. I was thinking the same kinda thing when I was certifying for GMAW. How about depositng carbide on the lock surface with a carbidizer?
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I'm not sure of the final finish a carbidizer can but on a metal - wouldn't want to go too rough or put on something too hard I'd think.
Can the coating be machined, e.g. sanded?
I've done the custom stop pin thing when I had lathe access, but I that just puts the lock surfaces at an angle. So I thought a coating at the lock interface would be better.
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I've seen frame locks that came shipped new with lock ups that were 3/4 all the way across the tang that wore forever and I've seen some that were very early that soon developed blade play. This has to do with spring tension or lock spring tension to be more specific. Some come super tweaked and therefore the lock travels in faster and as far as it can with each snap opened. This is in contrast to other locks that are not sprung much at all so they have great contacts at first but soon after breaking in they develop some up and down movement because the lock is not sprung enough to allow it to continue any farther in to self adjust for wear. How soon or how late this happens seems to be as unique as fingerprints.
Without going into details the lock up contact, IE how much foot print the lock actually has connecting to the blade seems to be related to how long the lock will last in one spot or how slow it wears vs how fast but when combined with other factors, some of which have already been mentioned like stop pin wear, and lack of spring tension for the lock to things like improper pivot tension leading to blade play A/K/A, lateral movement (side to side blade movement). All of these things can contribute to how a lock behaves and how long it lasts among other things.
Just like with anything, some are better than others. Its also dependent on how the lock looks compared to the blade. On many if the lock is .150 thickness or thicker and the blade is .120 plus or minus in thickness it may look like more lock is connecting or fool you into thinking its about ready to be serviced when its not, or it can look like you have a great contact when infact its way early and not coming in far at all and that just the lock thickness gives the optical illusion that its better or worse than it actually is. The real tell is when and if it ever develops blade play up and down. I've seen some models sent to me for yearly edge upkeep that have long since traveled all the way across the contact of the blade and after years of being this way still show no signs of vertical movement so if anything else they are not only more reliable in all liklihood but they are better mated to the blade they support than a new refreshed lock would be. Which is better? Guess its a very subjective thing. If it bugs you to have one travel in further get it fixed. Most of the folks I know just use them adopting the attitude that if it ain't broke don't fix it.
If a stop pin looks bad in one spot spin it to a new one until its chewed all the way around or get one that is closer to the same hardness as the blade. Some come soft and some hard and some come too soft. Whatever the case, with a super steel banging on it everyday it can take a toll over time, especially if its hard used. Mostly though its the lock contact that takes the punishment faster and shows it. Some contend that Waved knives wear faster than non Waved ones. There may be some truth to that but for me personally the jury is still out on that. I guess its possible.
STR
Without going into details the lock up contact, IE how much foot print the lock actually has connecting to the blade seems to be related to how long the lock will last in one spot or how slow it wears vs how fast but when combined with other factors, some of which have already been mentioned like stop pin wear, and lack of spring tension for the lock to things like improper pivot tension leading to blade play A/K/A, lateral movement (side to side blade movement). All of these things can contribute to how a lock behaves and how long it lasts among other things.
Just like with anything, some are better than others. Its also dependent on how the lock looks compared to the blade. On many if the lock is .150 thickness or thicker and the blade is .120 plus or minus in thickness it may look like more lock is connecting or fool you into thinking its about ready to be serviced when its not, or it can look like you have a great contact when infact its way early and not coming in far at all and that just the lock thickness gives the optical illusion that its better or worse than it actually is. The real tell is when and if it ever develops blade play up and down. I've seen some models sent to me for yearly edge upkeep that have long since traveled all the way across the contact of the blade and after years of being this way still show no signs of vertical movement so if anything else they are not only more reliable in all liklihood but they are better mated to the blade they support than a new refreshed lock would be. Which is better? Guess its a very subjective thing. If it bugs you to have one travel in further get it fixed. Most of the folks I know just use them adopting the attitude that if it ain't broke don't fix it.
If a stop pin looks bad in one spot spin it to a new one until its chewed all the way around or get one that is closer to the same hardness as the blade. Some come soft and some hard and some come too soft. Whatever the case, with a super steel banging on it everyday it can take a toll over time, especially if its hard used. Mostly though its the lock contact that takes the punishment faster and shows it. Some contend that Waved knives wear faster than non Waved ones. There may be some truth to that but for me personally the jury is still out on that. I guess its possible.
STR
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I have access to my father-in-laws lathe if I ever have the need. I don't think the angled lock surface should matter to much, after all look at a Strider. I think I would peen the lock before making a bigger pin because it may involve re-grinding one of the lock surfaces.
As far as depositing metal on a lock, remember the CRKT M16 folders? The tang had been carbidized IIRC.
I think the overtravel thing is mostly hot air. I have Sebenzas that have been opened thousands of times over a decade of use, with no change whatsoever in the position of the lock bar on the tang. So obviously it's possible to build a knife where this is not a significant concern. Could go into detail re case-hardening of lock bar, deformation of stop pins, yada... but point is this need not be a concern with an effectively made knife.
On the blade play, there are two modalities - lateral and axial. Back to the Sebenza (and Umfaan) none of mine have any lateral play even with the lock disengaged. That's what the pivot bushing is for. Lock engagement doesn't matter. Obviously there's going to be axial play if the lock "wears out", but at the rate I'm going, that will take several lifetimes.
So all things considered, I prefer the enhanced engagement of a "late" lockup to the extra "wear" in an "early" lockup. I don't really care how well my knife's going to lock up in 500 years, but I do care how secure it's going to be for the next 50 or so.
And yes, generally speaking frame locks are vastly superior to liner locks.
On the blade play, there are two modalities - lateral and axial. Back to the Sebenza (and Umfaan) none of mine have any lateral play even with the lock disengaged. That's what the pivot bushing is for. Lock engagement doesn't matter. Obviously there's going to be axial play if the lock "wears out", but at the rate I'm going, that will take several lifetimes.
So all things considered, I prefer the enhanced engagement of a "late" lockup to the extra "wear" in an "early" lockup. I don't really care how well my knife's going to lock up in 500 years, but I do care how secure it's going to be for the next 50 or so.
And yes, generally speaking frame locks are vastly superior to liner locks.
Over travel can cause some blade play, but that depends on the knife, and how much space there is between the scale/handle and the blade. A knife without any pivot bushings will be flush with the scales/handles, so overtravel won;t be much of an issue. One with thick bushings, depending also, on the thickness of the lock, coudl be a problem. Normally, before such a thing becomes an issue, you will begin to notice it. Unless of course you want to hang a 200 LB weight and drop test the lock.