Question For Thomas On Edge Angles

[Vivi]

Thomas, recently I received my first Leek (Excellent design I must say) and have since made a couple of personal modifications to make the knife suit me better. One of those was regrinding the edge bevel to something more acute.

I was wondering if there were any specific reasons for the current edge angles Leeks ship with. Based on my elementary understanding of blade geometry and their corresponding edge angles, the Leek's edge felt too obtuse to me to really take advantage of the thin blade. One of the first days I used the Leek was cleaning our kitchen at home, slicing up lots of cardboard for the trash. It felt like I was using a thicker bladed knife than I was due to the edge angle. I've since made the bevel about twice as acute and cutting performance is much better. I haven't had any durability issues.

Reducing the edges that much might be drastic for some, but I'd just like to know if there are any specific reasons why the edges don't ship even just a few degrees thinner. I noticed this on my Spec Bump when I had one as well. I plan to buy one of the aluminum Speed Bumps at some point and I know the first thing I'll do to it after making sure it functions well is to reprofile it. I currently have a Groove in my pocket that was reprofiled to 15 degrees per side, but even after the reprofiling it feels a bit thick at the edge for my tastes.

Would just like to hear your input concerning this. Thanks for your time.

 

[Gary W. Graley]

Thomas talks about this a bit in this Thread

It's quite a long thread and discussions did get a little heated at times...

G2

 

[Thomas W]

Vivi, you have kind of been after me to answer this question for a little while now, and some of the answers are in the link that Gary posts above.

That thread (and others) really ticked me off, but I tried to explain some of our thinking when it comes to producing our knives and edges.
It was amusing however to read Native Justice accuse me of of never handling a thinly ground blade though. Being that our Shun blades fit in that category, we are quite aware of thin geometry . Is that the same thread Cliff calls me a liar, a hype machine, and other flattering names?

Let me know your thoughts after you read the linked thread Vivi. I can't go through it again myself, it gets my blood boiling. If you have further questions, we can discuss it more.

 

[Vivi]

I finished the first four pages. I think that probably answers as much as that thread will, but I'll read the rest later. Sorry that things had to get so personal there, that really should of been left out.

I would be really pleased to see, somewhere down the road, a sprint run done in the fashion some of us are requesting with regards to thinner edges.

I really enjoy a lot of the Kershaw designs and will continue buying them, but I just wanted to personally state that for my usesI feel every Kershaw I buy needs reprofiled. This isn't unique to your company, you'll see me talking about the same perceived problem with my Buck's Spyderco's etc.

I can understand the point about the common Joe treating their knife differently, which makes me think a sprint run in something higher end and exotic (Something I would imagine targets people like us more than the average knife user) steel-wise would be a good move. Something like the Ti/ZDP Leek ground at 20 degrees inclusive (10 degrees per side).

Either way, thanks for continuing your presence here after you've endured a couple of different threads like that. It's very nice to have direct company representation like this. Even if you don't produce a thinned out knife anytime this year, it great that I have the oppurtunity to ask you person to person.

 

[Thomas W]

I'm not sure you got this far on that thread Vivi (this is from page 5), but this may shed some more light on the subject for you.

I did run out of time this morning, but wanted to add another cold truth to this scenario.

When we do these high end short run products, in this case 750 pieces of the Ti/ZDP Cyclone, these knives took precedent over regular production. With the amount of time it took to finish these pieces up, we could have produced 3000-5000 pieces of JYD's, Groove's, Need's Work's, aka new 2007 production, you know the actual money makers. Margins go out the window, regular turns have now been missed, customers get impatient, etc..

To go the full monty setting up new fixtures, walking a thin line with warranty, further slowing down regular production, etc.. all in the name of a thinner edge...it just doesn't add up.
So we make it the way we do (same as regular production in this case). Everything is pretty much set up to be ground at .018 to .021, you get an angry sharpener taking it over after that...well there you have it.

To go on further from my earlier post, we do hope to get to a point where it is profitable to make geometry changes efficiently , we are just not there today.

When STeven says I get the stinkeye from production, he ain't kidding, but it is important for us (in my eyes) that we do these projects even if we need to sacrifice from time to time.

Hopefully this shows some more insight on why we do what we do, and the tough decisions that need to be made.

How many Evil Empire darksiders do you think exist at this point? Are your numbers growing?

Roadrunner, ZDP is run right at 64 Rc. Curious, would you have noticed the edge if it wasn't mentioned in this thread?

 

[Thomas W]

Also if you can read past me being grumpy with this quote, it brings forth a bit more insight.

do you have a clue about the amount of volume that the Wal-Mart account consumes annually? I'm not talking about 1 sku in limited stores like the Native, I'm talking about 6 sku's nationwide. My assumption is that is that it is a few more than you may think. This account alone makes up more knives than some manufacturers currently do in an entire year.

You mention warranty, and I have mentioned the cost of doing business in the past, as well as the set up's we have here internally here at Kai USA. Over the last 10 years we have learned a great deal about our customers along with what works and doesn't work in moving volumes of knives. With our continued growth (not in the outsourcing business btw), although we don't know everything, we are pretty good at what we do. If you or anyone else here can look past their darksider glasses and feels like they can improve what we do daily, by all means illuminate me send forth a resume ASAP.

We also understand the different steels and materials we use. We have 6 engineers on staff, we build our own robotics, and warranty our own machines. We are as self sufficient as they come. We have some of the best custom knife makers in our stable, with their names being put on the line, they understand what and why we do things the way we do, and it works for them, almost every time. Do we have to sacrifice, most assuredly, but we do it all in the name of a secure future.

We process our knives in a way that allows us to stay in business, as well as keep both the dealers and consumers satisfied (well, most of them anyway). I believe we wouldn't be where we are today, and our growth would fall off quickly if this were not the case. There are reasons for doing it the way we do, and sadly they are not always based on performance. Certainly you all must understand that performance does not come before returns in big box business. Unfortunately performance is a criteria that is rarely discussed when sitting face to face with a buyer.

When you are in the volume knife business, you have a bunch of 50 gallon drums sitting around, they fill up quickly, for reasons that are irrational in most cases. The returns and warranty would make your cringe...we back them up regardless. The uses these knives go through could write horror stories...we back them up regardless.

The above alone keeps the "let's go thinner" conversation to a minimum.

You think 13C26 is stable enough thinner...if for just a moment you pretend the Kai Corp is your business and there are ten's of millions of dollars of your monies on the line, and hundreds of families are depending on you opening your doors daily, are you really ready to take the risk? We are not, I'm not. There are boutique runs for that sort of business.

This Knife Review's and Testing is an interesting place for a volume manufacturer to venture in to. You all are taking everything to the extreme, HT's, locks, geometry, sharpening techniques, etc., and are pretty darn harsh on anyone or any company that doesn't live up to you severe standards. Personally I don't think that Kershaw has been welcomed with open arms here, which is surprising as I would think you would want to assist and support one that comes to this special and somewhat lonely area of the cutlery universe. It seems though this area is for ridicule and damning commentary, a place that doesn't want to take into account all the obstacles that are set before us... yet one is encouraged to stick around and "have fun".

I think there is tremendous opportunity for this area to grow and learn from...".

 

[kneedeep]

So distilling all the info down, Kershaw is well aware of the benefits of thin geometry (see their Shuns), but they have to weigh that against the realities of production (actual available equipment, setup, time on the line, people to do the extreme grinds), the least common denominator (or at least the average Joe), and their bottom line.

Kershaw seems to be open to the idea of producing blades for the darksiders, but it just isn't practical at this time. I think a lot of us forget that Kershaw is a company that is always innovating, they seem to be cranking out new designs at a furious pace. If they sat still and didn't keep making new designs it would probably be relatively easy to make thin ground blades.

This says to me that we all need to buy a lot more Kershaws, so that they can afford to invest in the additional equipment necessary to dedicate to extreme grinds and not lose production time on setup.

That being said, for the type of use my knives get, I'm happy with the edges as they are. (Not that I don't appreciate the thin edges though).

So much for distilling. I guess my final point is that we probably don't need to keep explaining to Kershaw that a thinner edge is better, they know when it is. All they probably need is a gentle reminder now and then, that there are still people interested in the thinner ground blades.

 

[darkop]

Dear Thomas,

I'm kinda new to knives but I feel there is a bright future ahead! <smile>

I recently purchased 3 Kershaw knives in 3 weeks. I'm really pleased with them. I really love the tanto Blur mdl. 1670TBLKST! What a fast, sharp and neat looking little job it is!

I will of course look into reading the thread that you kindly posted on so as to do my knives justice in the sharpening department that you posted to Vivi.

Sorry the thread got so personal and insulting to you. Especially when a fellow is trying to help others. As for me, I do appreciate people like yourself helping very, very much and I don't ever get into the insulting stuff.

As a new subscriber to the forum I really hope you keep up the great advice.

Thank you again!

Cheers,
darkop

 

[Thomas W]

darkop, thanks for the kind words. We will keep moving forward in a positive direction.

Welcom to the forums!

 

[mchlwise]

Either way, thanks for continuing your presence here after you've endured a couple of different threads like that. It's very nice to have direct company representation like this. Even if you don't produce a thinned out knife anytime this year, it great that I have the oppurtunity to ask you person to person.

Yeah, no kidding.

I haven't even read the linked thread yet, or the rest of the posts in this one (though I intend to), but wanted to immediately post my appreciation for your presence here.

:thumbup: