QUESTION: How to fit guard to Ricasso?

D

DaQo'tah Forge

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Hi this is DaQo'tah

I seem to always have trouble fitting the brass guard to the ricasso flush.

each time there is a small gap at one end or both.

I drive the guard the last 1/2 inch onto the tight steel with a hammer, so there is no going back. And there is no way I can see to test fit it first...

I use a ruler to check my fileing before I fit the guard, and it always "looks" correct, but each time there is a small error that I dont know how to stop, nor how to fix later?

for a better idea of the problem, I have posted this drawing on my website-

http://eastof29.tripod.com/daqotahforge2/id28.html
 
If at first you don't succeed get a bigger hammer! Fit it all together the best you can then put the guard in place and whack it real good on the side with a hammer. A few good whacks will squash it flat against the blade with no gap anywhere. Then just file the front and back back to square and you have a perfectly fitted guard that is ready to be shaped and polished.
 
OOPS! I just reread your post and I answered the wrong question. My bad. Use a file guide on the blade to get the ricasso perfectly even.
 
done that. The hammer thing, that is.

If you want to make top quality knives with excellent fit and finish, I would say keep the hammering to a minimum. Using a hammer and some sort of seating tool to drive the guard down the final 1/16-1/8" is fine. But if you use it to close gaps, either side to side or top to bottom, your fit and finish will suffer. Metal only moves,it does not disappear. Thus the space you take up in one direction results in bulges, unevenness, or other deformations in another direction.

Get a good filing jig--Uncle Al at Riverside Machine makes a great one--and use it to make sure your ricasso shoulders are perfectly flat and even. Next, make sure your guard material is absolutely flat (a surface plate and abrasive paper work well for this). The last, and perhaps most difficult part is to file out your guard slot slowly and evenly, frequently checking the fit. Of course, this last step will only work if you have already evenly and uniformly tapered your tang, and have a good even ricasso.

Good luck,

John
 
I file and hammer the hole first then go back and square up the front and back. filing off the bulges that appear then cut and shape the guard. if you try to hammer fit a guard that is already almost done you will screw it up for sure, but if you do that part first it works out real nice.
 
A trick to making sure you are filing straight is, polish the front of the guard so you can see a reflection. File with that part of the guard facing you. If you get off kilter, you will see it instantly, in the reflection.;)
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah

Im not sure I asked the question right, but the problem is NOT with the brass guard, ...It's with the steel of the Racisso area.

The flat sides of the guard seem to fit nice now against the flat of the ricasso, I do that part correctly.

But I file the "STEEL" of the ricasso at an angle to match the way I want the brass to go, and so far there is a problem with this small little fileing that Im doing.

Today when I banged-home the brass into place, there was a fingernail size gap between the guard and the knife. I did my fileing at the wrong angle.

Now, as for getting a guide, I dont understand where this goes?

How could I make my own guide?, where does it go? how does it work?

Right now I am holding up a ruler and sighting across it to make both ends line up at the correct angle, but this has not worked well.

see my drawing of the problem if my words still confused.


http://eastof29.tripod.com/daqotahforge2/id28.html
 
When I clean up a blade after forging, I lay the blade flat against the platen, holding it vertical, so the belt runs the length of the blade. Apply equal pressure in the center of the ricasso area, then flip and do the same on the other side. Now before I grind in my guard stops I check the thickness of the blade at the ricasso both above and below the tang with a dial caliper. If its not within a few thousandths I grind a little more until it is, then grind in my guard stops. then the plunge cuts, distal taper and bevels. This should help you get a very close fit with your guard if you fie the guard evenly.

Hope this helps

Bill
 
DaQ, get yourself one of these jigs for 20 bucks from Sheffield's, you clamp it to your ricasso at whatever angle you desire, file down to the hardened jig, & you'll look like the pro's....

Sheffield"s 1-800-874-7007

standard.jpg
 
Hi DaQo'tah !
You can make (or buy) a simple jig to square the shoulder
of your tang with a file. Check my jig on the pic, very easy to make with
some srap piece of 0-1 (hardened) and some screw...
(note: on the second pict, the jig are moved backward to show
the tang shoulder)

Good luck !

Alain M-D

jig1.jpg


jpg2
 
DaQo'tah,
A filing jig made with thin stock will not lend itself to be able to have nice, flat shoulders. They may tend to be rounded somewhat if not careful. The key here is to have a jig with a wide surface face such as the one shown in the post above from Sheffield's.
I have the one from Riverside Machine (Uncle Al's) and it works like a charm.
If I were to make my own I would use two pieces of angle iron with hardened faces screwed to the top surface. I would have two additional pieces of steel on the clamps for pins and screws to clamp the tang with. All that said and the work involved, what I paid for mine was pretty darned cheap! It is flat!

By the way, keep the DaQo'tah news coming! You can't imagine how much I enjoy your outlook on stuff. :D

C Wilkins
 
Hi this is Daqo'tah

thanks everyone for the advice about getting the fileing guide.

It does seem like way too much work to make my own, so yes, I will have to get one from a knife supply website .

Thanks for the photos too guys, I didn't really understand what you guys were talking about at first, but when my computer loaded fully the photos, then I got it!

oh one more thing...

C Wilkins, thanks for reading my "DaQo'tah News" stuff...I like to write my adventures down for others to read.

I dont have any great knives under my belt that I could post photos of like the rest of you guys.

But I can remind you guys of the old days, where everything went wrong, when the next step in the making of a knife was unknown, and you just guess,,,"Perhaps I do this next?", only to find that you have to re-do something.

Like....take last night for example, I had waited all day for the 2-ton glue to get hard on my latest 5160 knife. I had glued it at 9:00 in the morning, and last night at about 7:00 I picked it up to start work on cutting and sanding the oak down to size carefully around the tang.

It was then when I saw that I had not cut the tang down shorter before I had drilled the oak and glued it. I had left the tang a mile long because at the time when I was Heat Treating the blade, I thought that the longer handle would be easyer to hang on to.

I now had a handle that was going to be about 8+ inches long before I was done.

Waisted!....all that oak,,,after that oak had sat for a week in Wood Hardner then over night in the food dryer!

Waisted!....all that day waiteing for the glue to set-up, only now to have to cut the oak off and start over!

I took the knife out to the shop, used the ban saw and a rasp to take off the oak handle, then I cut a inch+ off the steel tang, then cut some new oak for the handle. I drilled it out, forgot about the Wood Hardner this time, and just glued it back onto the now shorter tang,,,,,

In a moment I will dress and head out to the cold shop, and ....begin.
 
Allen,
I disagree with you on one point. The sholders of the tang probally shouldn't have a square corner. I have been cautioned, many times, about creating "stress risers." A rounded corner is much stronger than a square corner. I now use a half round file with a safe edge to leave a gentle curve.
Feel free to disagree, I like to hear other openions!
Lynn
 
This a great thread. To add a couple things:

Belstain,
If you are getting the results that you desire,that is all that matters. Sounds like you have a good system in place. I guess my only comment would be that careful filing from the beginning would obviate the use of hammers altogether.

Lynn,
In theory you are absolutely right. And I too have been warned about this. And I too believe that rounded corners are stronger. On the other hand, in destructive testing of blades, I have yet to see a blade fail at he ricasso. I am not saying it hasn't happened or isn't possible, just that I think it is pretty rare. Then again, even one failure is too many:)

John
 
HI this is DaQo'tah

I dont understand how that could work at all,,,the sholders of the tang have to be sharp and square as far as I can see,,,how else could the brass fit?

did you see my drawing on my site?....my angle was wrong, but the Brass/blade corner did hit in the right spot,,,,it was the far end of the shoulder that had a hair gap between the shoulder and the guard.

how can you round the corner?....I need to see a photo!

Who has a photo of what this looks like?
 
Originally posted by Lynn
I disagree with you on one point. The sholders of the tang probally shouldn't have a square corner. A rounded corner is much stronger than a square corner.
Click to expand...
I agree with you, the rounded corners seem to be better in theorie. Being a newbie and this knife being my first hiddent tang, I have make as I thought it. I saw in the Loveless book (too late) which it advised to make rounded corners... On the other hand I saw many knifemaker which does not do it round. That does not seem to be done by everyone... For my first try, I think that that will be easier like that..

C L Wilkins
A filing jig made with thin stock will not lend itself to be able to have nice, flat shoulders.
Click to expand...
I agrees also, thicker it is better! I have make mine with what I have under the hands and in spite of that, it work very well, on the other hand it is necessary to pay attention more and to be meticulous ! If y can, I will make another one with thicker steel, soon...

DaQo'tah Forge
how can you round the corner?....I need to see a photo!
Click to expand...
DaQo'tah, I have make two little drawings for you. The first one have a square shoulder (like my previous picture) and the second one have a rounded corner (to fit in the guard, the slot must be a little longer or to have notch to accept the round corner, as on the drawing, it is what I think, because I do not have make any still)

TANG1.gif


TANG2.gif
 
I drive the guard the last 1/2 inch onto the tight steel with a hammer, so there is no going back. And there is no way I can see to test fit it first...
Click to expand...
I see no reason that you cann't take the guard off from the knife and do some more filing in the appropriate area and then tap the guard back onto the knife. That is what I do. I have also tightened up a loose hole with the above mentioned hammer method and then removed the guard and filed of the lumps and bumps then polished and put the guard back on. As long as things aren't soldered or glued there should be no problem.
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Hi this is DaQo'tah
I seem to always have trouble fitting the brass guard to the ricasso flush.
each time there is a small gap at one end or both.
I drive the guard the last 1/2 inch onto the tight steel with a hammer, so there is no going back. And there is no way I can see to test fit it first...
I use a ruler to check my fileing before I fit the guard, and it always "looks" correct, but each time there is a small error that I dont know how to stop, nor how to fix later?
for a better idea of the problem, I have posted this drawing on my website-
http://eastof29.tripod.com/daqotahforge2/id28.html
Click to expand...
:eek: :D I think DaQo'tah found out back in 02-03-2003 dang this is an old thread:D
 
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