Question on Arkansas Oil Stone Sharpening Stones

Depends on the individual vein.
With Dan's Whetstones, the Black is finer. He has a pretty consistent stock too.
But somebody else's stone (that were not sourced from him), it might be the opposite.
Complicating matters, the finish on the stones will affect how they cut. They get finer with use too. Some people will get out the SiC powder to refinish the stones after a lot (A LOT) of use.
Dan finishes his stones very fine. Great on his black and translucent stones, but not so good on the Soft Arkansas.
With Dan's stones, the translucent stones are close enough to the black stones (to start) that's it's not worth getting both.

The real answer is that the most dense stones are potentially the finest. This is modified by their finish and wear.
 
I'll echo as above: the way the stone is finished can make a difference either way. I only have one example of each type (black hard & translucent) to compare. But variables like the initial surface prep, when new, can make a difference. And with time and use, any wear, glazing or subsequent resurfacing will change things again.

And being natural stones, I'll also agree that the particular sourcing of the stones can make them vary all over the place. No two are perfectly alike. Between my two examples, my black hard is much finer in working character than my translucent. The black hard is more of a burnishing stone, not generating much swarf when I use it. It also seems to glaze more quickly with use, which contributes to that burnishing character. My translucent is more aggressive with metal removal, producing visibly more swarf and it doesn't seem to glaze as quickly as the black hard.
 
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Like has already been mentioned not all the black arks are created equal. I do think a good black is the finest but I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a razor finished on a black or translucent. The translucents are faster in my opinion.
Either way I wouldn't argue with anyone with a different point of view. Get at least one of each and let us know what you think.
 
My experience with Arkansas stones is, that even the term "black" is not used in the same way. There are Hard Black stones as well as Surgical Black or True Black or simple Black Arkansas.
Dan's has already been mentioned. RH Preyda for example has Soft, Hard, Hard Black, Surgical Black, Translucent. Whereas Dan's is Soft, Hard, True Hard, Translucent, Black.
And there are others who might rate / name their stones quite different.
I only know those stones from RH Preyda (apart the translucent). For my needs even the Hard Black was more than enough.
 
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afishhunter said:
I probably will.
I will probably need the black at least, to smooth a nib or three.
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Dan's are worth the extra you will pay. Not only are Dan's Black's high quality stones they have a reputation for being flat and pretty much ready to go. If you really want to see what a black ark is capable of doing it should be flat and lapping a hard ark isn't the way to spend a Sunday.

I know some years ago Sharpening Supply's arks were rebranded Dan's, probably still are. My experience with the company has been all positive.
 
garry3 said:
If you really want to see what a black ark is capable of doing it should be flat and lapping a hard ark isn't the way to spend a Sunday.
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You are right about that! I just FINALLY got a small black Arkansas stone flat after giving up on it several times before. Damned thing turns 36 grit sic powder into 600 grit powder in about three minutes. Turned my xtra course DMT plate into a fine DMT plate, too. And that's with a 4"x2" stone! Purchased it decades ago from Williams Sonoma.
 
garry3 said:
Dan's are worth the extra you will pay. Not only are Dan's Black's high quality stones they have a reputation for being flat and pretty much ready to go. If you really want to see what a black ark is capable of doing it should be flat and lapping a hard ark isn't the way to spend a Sunday.

I know some years ago Sharpening Supply's arks were rebranded Dan's, probably still are. My experience with the company has been all positive.
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I forgot to mention that.
Some companies like the former Hall's and Natural Whetstones (I think) had a reputation for stones that weren't dead flat. or at least being hit or miss on flatness.
Give the man credit, he sells quality.
 
The actual color makes almost no difference. Stones are graded by their density. A lot of people insist on grading quality by color. I have a number of Dan's stones and all of his stuff is exactly as he describes it - it's really a big family operation and they care about their customer base.
 
drail said:
The actual color makes almost no difference. Stones are graded by their density. A lot of people insist on grading quality by color. I have a number of Dan's stones and all of his stuff is exactly as he describes it - it's really a big family operation and they care about their customer base.
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I agree the color doesn't signify the quality. However, with the possible exception of the translucent stones, the black are harder/finer/denser than the lighter "soft" stones.
For what I wanted it for; polishing a fountain pen nib, upon further research I'm not sure if the Dan's black or translucent will work. They may be too coarse, at least for the final polish. I need 8000 to 12000 grit for the finishing polish.

I still may get the 3 piece Dan's pocket stone set for my 1095/440A/420HC/1.4116 KRUPP/up to 9CR18MoV blades though. Admittedly, I probably don't need more than the "soft" stone for a fine edge on them.

Question:
Will Dan's stones cut 5160, S30V, D2, and CPM154, or are those steels harder than the stones?
 
afishhunter said:
I agree the color doesn't signify the quality. However, with the possible exception of the translucent stones, the black are harder/finer/denser than the lighter "soft" stones.
For what I wanted it for; polishing a fountain pen nib, upon further research I'm not sure if the Dan's black or translucent will work. They may be too coarse, at least for the final polish. I need 8000 to 12000 grit for the finishing polish.

I still may get the 3 piece Dan's pocket stone set for my 1095/440A/420HC/1.4116 KRUPP/up to 9CR18MoV blades though. Admittedly, I probably don't need more than the "soft" stone for a fine edge on them.

Question:
Will Dan's stones cut 5160, S30V, D2, and CPM154, or are those steels harder than the stones?
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Regarding the question re: will the Dan's stones cut...

I draw the line at 440C and anything equivalent or more wear-resistant than it. I've found that Ark stones will struggle with 440C. For simple polishing/burnishing or deburring, etc., the finer stones may be useable at times. But for actual cutting ('grinding') of these steels, I've found any natural stone to be nearly unusable on wear-resistant steels. I came to that conclusion years ago, in trying to use Ark stones for reprofiling one of Buck's older 440C blades (on a 112). My Ark stones wouldn't touch it, in terms of making a noticeable difference in metal removal. Should be fine for the 5160 or any other simple carbon steel (1095, CV, etc) and simple stainless like 420HC or 440A. But for the S30V, D2 and CPM154, I wouldn't even consider Ark stones for those. The carbides in these steels will glaze a natural stone very quickly, at the least, after which the stone will stop cutting on anything you try, including the simpler steels.

The novaculite grit in any Ark stone, no matter how good the branding, is basically half as hard as even the chromium carbides in 440C, D2, CPM154, and even less hard in relation to vanadium carbides in steels like S30V. Novaculite is barely harder than the simple iron carbides in simple carbon steels at times. So, virtually any other mid/high-alloy steel with a significant chromium/vanadium/tungsten/molydenum carbide content will make an Ark stone really struggle.
 
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I agree with Obsessed with Edges. Even with softer steels, black Arkansas stones cut very slowly. I've seen the grit rating at around 4000, but with natural stones there's always going to be considerable variation.
 
Obsessed with Edges Obsessed with Edges
Reprofiling (which they needed) or just sharpening Buck's 440C back in the day with the stones that were commonly available was a minimum of a nightmare, wasn't it?
I know a few who switched from their pretty much "unsharpenable" (with then available stones) 110's for a sharpenable Uncle Henry LB7, when they came out in '78(?). Or if somewhat wealthy, got whatever Puma lockback the same size as the 110, before the LB7 came out.
I know at least one of my classmates from '71 to '74 carried a Puma lockback with Stag covers.

I suspect if Buck had used a 25 to 32 degree inclusive edge instead of that 🤬🤬🤬 obtuse duller than an axe 50 to 60 degree inclusive convex edge, (which was known to sometimes be rounded when the blade was polished) they (a) wouldn't have been so difficult to sharpen. They wouldn't have needed reprofiling, either ... unless you wanted a 18 to 20 ~ 22 degree inclusive edge.
 
afishhunter said:
For what I wanted it for; polishing a fountain pen nib, upon further research I'm not sure if the Dan's black or translucent will work. They may be too coarse, at least for the final polish. I need 8000 to 12000 grit for the finishing polish.
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From my reading I believe that the densest Arkansas stones, like sintered ceramics, largely perform based on the surface finish applied to the stone. Like a steel file the "grit" is not predetermined by the material but by how the teeth are cut into it. Some straight razor users polish an Arkansas stone to act at least as fine as your target, if not significantly finer.
 
afishhunter said:
Obsessed with Edges Obsessed with Edges
Reprofiling (which they needed) or just sharpening Buck's 440C back in the day with the stones that were commonly available was a minimum of a nightmare, wasn't it?
I know a few who switched from their pretty much "unsharpenable" (with then available stones) 110's for a sharpenable Uncle Henry LB7, when they came out in '78(?). Or if somewhat wealthy, got whatever Puma lockback the same size as the 110, before the LB7 came out.
I know at least one of my classmates from '71 to '74 carried a Puma lockback with Stag covers.

I suspect if Buck had used a 25 to 32 degree inclusive edge instead of that 🤬🤬🤬 obtuse duller than an axe 50 to 60 degree inclusive convex edge, (which was known to sometimes be rounded when the blade was polished) they (a) wouldn't have been so difficult to sharpen. They wouldn't have needed reprofiling, either ... unless you wanted a 18 to 20 ~ 22 degree inclusive edge.
Click to expand...
The factory edge on my 2-dot 112 was THICK behind the edge and OBTUSE at the edge. I finally fixed that with some SiC wet/dry sandpaper, quite a number of years after having put the knife out of my sight in frustration, after I'd attempted reprofiling on my Arkansas stones. The 'ease of sharpening' threshold, between those two sharpening options, is radically different, depending on which side of the fence you're on. Buck's 440C was too much for the Ark stones, but SiC ate it for breakfast. That was one of the best sharpening lessons I could've wished for - like an epiphany for me, at the time. Pics below were taken sometime after I'd made that knife one of my favorites, after shunning it previously for many years.
K1i0kor.jpg

rxT9k8t.jpg
 
It's all in the angle...... I've owned knives that had horrible factory grinds that were uneven. After fixing that they were easy to get scary sharp.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
The factory edge on my 2-dot 112 was THICK behind the edge and OBTUSE at the edge. I finally fixed that with some SiC wet/dry sandpaper, quite a number of years after having put the knife out of my sight in frustration, after I'd attempted reprofiling on my Arkansas stones. The 'ease of sharpening' threshold, between those two sharpening options, is radically different, depending on which side of the fence you're on. Buck's 440C was too much for the Ark stones, but SiC ate it for breakfast. That was one of the best sharpening lessons I could've wished for - like an epiphany for me, at the time. Pics below were taken sometime after I'd made that knife one of my favorites, after shunning it previously for many years.
K1i0kor.jpg

rxT9k8t.jpg
Click to expand...
I wore out my first 112 (440C) on carborundum stones; Arkansas hones just didn't work. Much prefer Buck's 420HC these days, or S30V, like my Custom Shop 112.
 
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