Question: on Army Infantry & K5 hawk

forrest long

forrest long

Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
204
I have a question and maby some of you guys have some experience and can help.

I have a friend, who at 32, joined the army. He is currently in bootcamp and was assigned to an infantry division. He was down on his luck and living in a small town in Texas, where jobs are non-exsistant, and just said he had to get out. So I have two questions for you more experienced guys. Me being a Navy guy I would never know if this is possible.

One, is an infantry person allowed to carry a tactical tomahawk?

Two, if given the choise, which type of hawk, spike or hammer poll, would be a better choise for an infantry person?

I am thinking about surprising him with a tactical tomahawk when he gets home from bootcamp, but I want to be sure he will be able to take it back with him. With him having a wife and three kids I know he won't have the money to buy one so it should be a good gift.

Thanks for the help.:thumbup:
 
Hopefully, you'll get responses from active duties, but my understanding is, it depends on his MOS. Some units are very restrictive about what's fieldable, do to training/liability issues, understandable. The Spec. Op's community is more flexible, because they have to be, to meet the mission objective. I know SF, Rangers, Etc... Can have tomahawks, and use them for expediant breeching, which also cuts down on the number of breeching tools they need to carry. :thumbup:

As to Spikehawk or Hammer-Poll, the majority would probably say Spikehawk, whether the benefits outway the drawbacks, or it's just a fad in hawks, I'm not so sure. I've trained in CQB and breeched with both. In CQB, I don't like the possibility of catching my own spike in a grapple situation. For breeching, the spike gives you an additional penetration advantage, but when your working in tight quarters, you have to be mindful that you have a live edge facing you at all times. I also think that there are times when it is an advantage to 'hammer' instead of puncture. I have a number of Spikehawks, the K5 Hawk-Spike being my favorite. I'm EAGERLY awaiting, any day, a custom K5 Hammer-Poll. When that comes, it will become my deployment hawk, even though except for SAR, the only place I'll be deploying to is the woods around my house on my Quad. :D
 
Thanks for the info. I had no idea that they could be restrictive on what could be carried by the soilders. I just figured that if you are going into harms way you could bring as many weapons as you could carry. I will ask him in a letter, but I also don't want to spoil the surprise.

I can see the reasoning on being careful with a spikehawk. Honestly, I had never considered the possibility of being hit with the spike in CQB. That is a good point to consider. I am also waiting on a K5 hammer poll and will be ordering the spike by the end of the month. The only sad part is I live in the city so I have to drive to the woods to play with the toys.

Thanks for the info,

Forrest long
 
Please regard these remarks from someone that retired before the last two wars in the Middle East. Also I was primarly a 'Tanker' most of my career so judge accordingly. Things have changed but here are some constants that may still be in effect.

What you are authorized to carry in the U.S. gets modified a lot once you get in the theater of operations.

The Divisional, Brigade, and type of unit (regardless of MOS-because these organizations have a variety of MOS at those levels.) Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) will spell out some of this. But as with point one this often changes in courtry. Your K-Bar or Randell might not go over with you but it sometimes gets mailed as a 'care-package'. If I remember correctly a lot of personal stuff goes over with the unit equipment load and not carried by the individual. Strange things always show up in vehicle tool boxes....get my drift. Soldiers find a way ! My daughter mailed back to me some German WW I bayonets that she ran across during one of her 2 tours in Afganistan.

Final advice, if you are going to be doing a lot of walking. The Combat Load (on the soldier's back) is everthing and has an impact on you physically. Bottom-line for tomahawks, if the 'ole man' lets you carry them, is 'Go as light as possible." Remember the key point of focus is carrying enough ammunition to keep you 'butt' from having to use knives and tomahawks.

You see lots of tomahawks being pictured with troops
'in the box'. Some of these are Special Forces that have a lot more flexibility in what they carry. They are always testing out new equipment and such. Two years back I was working with some of the Army R&D boards. I never saw anything about tomahawks there. There was a lot going on the PR circles but that was mostly by contractors. Can't say what happened since then.

I wish I had a better answer hopefully some with recent experience 'in the box' will chime in.

I understand the new K-5 was orginally intended as a breaching tool. I can't wait to get mine and run it through mill. This will be the first really modern hawk that I've bought....Just can't wait.

Best
Dwight
 
Thanks for the update. So basically if there is a will there is a way to get it with him. I was also thinking about your other point. I'm not sure if the weight of the K5 would be too much for him. I was waiting untill I got mine then I would judge the weight. I heard that there was going to be a lighter K5 coming out. I just don't know when.

Thanks

Forrest
 
Check Out Blade Magazine April 2006 Page 18. American Tomahawk Vtac. Light & Tough With A Great History
 
the vtac has a nsn number, and is being used in stryker brigades. those are normal infantry units, but you never know, some commanders are retarded.
 
I would hazzard a guess that with an nsn someone snuck it in as part of the BII for one of the fighting vehicles. Who knows. Like I said, I've been out of the loop too long to be very creditable any more.

Take Care
Best
Dwight
 
I will check out the Vtac in blade magazine. I just like one piece steel models like the K5. Is the Vtac able to with stand alot of abuse with out loosening up. I do like the style, but I have a cold steel tomahawk and I'm scared to use it because its already lose. If the K5 is alittle heavy for him I will look into the Vtac. thanks for the ideas.

forrest
 
I've never used a VTAC but i'd imagine it that it's worlds above the Cold Steel hawk, in general CS hawks are hard to get a tight fit on without putting in a lot of work. Seems like the VTAC is made for hard use.
 
forrest long said:
I will check out the Vtac in blade magazine. I just like one piece steel models like the K5. Is the Vtac able to with stand alot of abuse with out loosening up. I do like the style, but I have a cold steel tomahawk and I'm scared to use it because its already lose. If the K5 is alittle heavy for him I will look into the Vtac. thanks for the ideas.

forrest
Click to expand...

On the CS, take the head off, rough up the handle a bit where the head fits,
soak that end in water for a few seconds, wipe down, apply gorilla glue, let set, use to your hearts content.

As far as the hawks go, the K5 is heavier, but it's base purpose is breeching, or demolition. In that, the solid 3/8" 1050 integral makes a difference. I only train to fight with one as a pastime, and in the rare event that I have to engage someone, WHILE breeching. While I agree that weight of the combat load is a key factor, a tools intended purpose is a big part of the formula. After all, it would be lighter to carry a sidearm and more 9mm ammo, than an M4 and 5.56mm, but the increased weight of the rifle is warranted, as a much more effective weapon. Some of the new hawks are optimized for fighting, but, while I have seen a few confirmed knife kills 'in the box' I have yet to hear about one with a hawk. The snipers I've corresponded with, were using demolition type hawks like RMJ's Talon or K5's, to breech buildings and knock holes in walls for their 'hides'. Then again, my only official experience with a hawk in the field, has been facing down drunken poachers, and dismantling their bowhunting treestands.
 
"On the CS, take the head off, rough up the handle a bit where the head fits,
soak that end in water for a few seconds, wipe down, apply gorilla glue, let set, use to your hearts content."

That's pretty well the same method I use, only problem is if you throw it a lot or chop downward it will still come loose easier than any other hawk i've handled despite the gorilla glue.
 
Hmmm. I've chopped quite a bit with mine, and the head's held. I use this on my Francesca Axes also, which invariably have loose heads... I don't throw my hawks however, possibly there is greater 'snap' on the haft as there is no hand hold to dampen the vibration??? I read somewhere (probably here) that someone drilled and threaded the head to accept an allen screw, then used lock-tight. That's the way I use my CS Rifleman, but I don't know about the lighter weights, seems like a lot of trouble. This is why I like integrals, but then again, they don't throw, or handle, like synthetic or wooden hafted hawks. I just like to demolish things with them. :D :thumbup:
 
Thanks for the tip. I'll try it out and let you guys know how it's going. I don't think I will ever be throwing this axe. I have the Bad Axe and the special forces shovel and they throw really good. As for my friend I'm not sure if he will ever be a sniper or ever on a breeching team. I was just thinking of a gift that he might get some use out of in the field. If it was me I wouldn't mind the extra weight, and peace of mind that comes along with an hawk like the K5.
Is the reasoning behind why there are no confirmed kills with a tomahawk because the troops are just not carrying them around or is a knife the first choise CQB weapon (besides a side arm). Should I consider getting him a good combat knife instead. Maby that would be more practical. Does anybody know what kind of knife the army infantry is issued (if any)?
 
If he's going to be in the middle east it's hard to provide information to make your choice easier. Most of what the Army is doing there is mounted, even if they are infantry. If he's mounted he'll want the most aggressive thing he can fit in his vehicle, in which case the K-5 spike is the best bang for the buck. My experience: use the spike to make a line of big holes, then use the blade to strip out the in-between areas for the fastest breaching times.

If his commander is a PC OER hunter, which happens often, you'll be better off getting him a K-5 utility or hammer poll. He can still use this to make holes in brick and cinderblock walls for gun ports and emergency hatches, as well as blodied up locals out of cars mangled by IEDs (although a tomahawk is no match for a sawsall and bonafide rescue kit!).

If he for some strange reason gets used as an infantryman and has to walk 3/8" steel suddenly doesn't look so cool anymore. Rumor has it that Eddie will be introducing a lighter K-5 soon, but it has yet to appear. In that case a lighter tool may be necessary (I recommend haysknivesmontana.com personally). Again, hammer or spike according to his needs and political correctness atmosphere.

Also check out RangerKnives.com or SageCreekOutfitters for the RD Hawk. It is a serious brute for its size!!! and a killer value as well.

It is rare for any non-SF unit to issue a knife, and many don't even get an M-9 bayonet. And if he get's the bayonet, he'll rather have something more useful and less cumbersome (unless he has to wear the bayonet as part of his uniform, which happens occaisionally). Something like a Cold Steek SRK, Swamp Rat Howling Rat or Camp Tramp, Strider MT or Busse SJT. He'll use a knife a lot more than a hawk, unless he gets assigned to a very cool platoon like scouts. He'll need a leatherman, a good folder, and a good fixed blade for sure.

But I tell you what, he'll appreciate anything you get for him, and probably end up using it too! Thanks for looking out for a Brother!!!
 
As far as the cold steel handle goes, yea mine mostly loosens due to throwing and if you hit a bad throw it's definitly comin off. For moderate chopping though it seems to work well.

I guess the knife/hawk debate for close quarters combat would be a personal choice, I know i't much rather have a hawk. Also i'd think a hawk would have more utility in general and if sharp enough could function as a good knife as well.
 
Active duty navy here. My advice: wait. Wait until he is actually in a unit and is no longer the FNG, (freaking new guy). If you really want to give him something a really nice multitool like the Swiss tool or the Leatherman Ti would be best, don't think anyone would even look twice at that. Plus, any FNG that show up with a tomahawk will likely not make the most desirable impresion on his SGT. (Holy &*^%! It's Rambo Jr..etc)
 
skunked said:
(Holy &*^%! It's Rambo Jr..etc)
Click to expand...
:eek:

That is true a hawk may not make a good impression on the unit. Maby I should wait on the hawk and let him settle in allittle before I get him one.
I was formerly in the Navy and while out to sea was required to carry a folding knife with me (BM3). I used to carry a multi tool. It was given to me because the plier broke off and the guy was going to throw it away. At the time I was not able to afford a good folder and was happy to get it. My friend has a family and I'm sure he will not be able to afford a good field knife, multi tool, or hawk. I don't understand why the army will not supply the troops with a good field knife.
So the debate is down to a multi tool, an SRK (I have one and love it), or a hammer poll hawk (I feel the hammer poll will not give off as much of the rambo impression). What would be the most use full item that a soldier could have?

Thank you guys for the help and info.:thumbup:
forrest
 
JWBirch said:
If he for some strange reason gets used as an infantryman and has to walk 3/8" steel suddenly doesn't look so cool anymore. Rumor has it that Eddie will be introducing a lighter K-5 soon, but it has yet to appear. In that case a lighter tool may be necessary (I recommend haysknivesmontana.com personally). Again, hammer or spike according to his needs and political correctness atmosphere.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendations on ligther tools. I fear he will be an infantryman and will be doing some walking. If it was me I wouldn't mind the extra weight, but I'm not in their shoes. I am currently leaning towards a hammer poll if a hawk is what I was to get him. I was under the impression that the soldiers were issued a field knife until I read some of you guys comments. So now I will start considering a good knife or multi tool along with the hawk. :confused:

Thanks for the info:thumbup:
forrest
 
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