question on copyright

K

kingfisher studio

Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
58
Is This something you guys deal with? Its a big issue in my field.
The last thing I want to do is come up with what I think is a good design, then be accused of stealing it somewhere down the road. I tend to follow the "nothing new under the sun" idea myself, and I see a lot of similar designs out there.
I looked through 26 pages of archives and couldnt find anything on this. My daughters nap time is about over so I cant search any more.
Pat
 
You must not have used the right search terms. Go to the general forum section...put on some waders....and search for "rip off" or "knock off". Repeat the same searches in the gallery forum for some more drama :yawn:


There isn't a whole lot thats new under the sun. There are infinite variations that can be made though. The general consensus seems to be that you need to respect everybody elses ideas, and give them credit if you use them. If its something you came up with on your own, then give yourself credit. Chances are it won't be 100% the same as someone elses design.
Also, if you are using someone elses idea, you should stop if they ask you regardless of whether your giving them credit or not.
Making knives for your own use is different than making knives to sell also. You get about as much leeway as you want then, but its still good to give credit where credit is due.

About all thats necessary is to call it a "loveless style" or "scagel style" "beck's tracker style" etc. There are alot of designs being copied, but credit is being given to the originators.
 
Thanks Matt
Im always torn between looking at alot of other work, and keeping myself isolated. I change my mind alot onwhich will make me more creative.
I dont think Ive got this forum quite figured out yet. I didnt see any options to search for key words. Just to view thread starters.
Where is Hilliard, by the way?
Pat
 
Actually, Kingfisher (I'm guessing you are involved in traditional arts, music, visual arts, etc?), copyright generally speaking is the wrong vehicle to protect knife-related innovations. A utility patent properly protects functional features (e.g. Ken Onion's SpeedSafe opening mechanism), while a design patent would protect purely ornamental features (the overall look of the Leek could be the subject of a design patent, for instance).

Copyright can be used to cover traditional art objects such as a sculpture. One could call a knife a sort of sculpture, to the extent its features aren't dictated by function. This would be an abuse of the copyright law, in my opinion.
 
Pat,
The problem is that there aren't any Patent Police. If you have a patent, it's up to you to enforce it. I'm sure you know that. The problem is that a knifemaker will be knocked off by a knife manufacturer and his pockets aren't as deep as the manufacturer, in most cases. In the end, he has spent a fortune on the patent and trying to enforce it, and the knife is still being knocked off.
 
Pat
There should be a "search" button on the toolbar running across the top of the page. Maybe thats a paid members only thing now :confused:
Hilliard is just west of(being swallowed up by) Columbus.
 
Thanks everyone
Knocking off other artists is rampant, (and perceived knock offs) in the circles i travel(pottery, sculpture).
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but not when you're trying to sell it
Its also incredibly difficult to prove(i.e. not worth the money).I know a company near me that buys artists work and ships it directly to China to be mass produced.
That being said, im somewhat paranoid about the appearance of any impropriety on my part.
As for the knives, most of what i see from people on this list goes way beyond function, i wouldnt hesitate to call it art. alot of beautiful work.
Pat
Ive been told that the only advantage an artist has, is that he/she has the ability to come up with the next design, once they've been ripped off.
 
ActuallY I think you can protect a design better with a copyright if it is part of trademark or logo. I'm no lawyer but I seem to remember that discussion somewhere before. Copyrights are relatively cheap to come by.

Course the best way to keep people from knock-offs of your item is simply to keep it on the drawing board and never reveal it to anyone.
I know a guy like that.

Do you really think Knockoff Rollex's really affect Rollex sale's?

The people that buy a knock off Rollex Are no more Likeely to buy a Rollex than I am, I don't even wear a watch.

Ever once in awhile you see somebody selling a product with a label similar to the big boys Stuff and they get sued, and it sticks.

try putting your logo in a Ford or Chevy emblem and selling it commercially and see what happens.

Patent's :barf::barf::barf:
I was working with a company on a design for some new machinery. relatively easy to build and filled a need. We produced a few. THey worked great.

The Boss spent $18 or $19K on the patent alone and come up with nothing.
We could have produced some serious product with that money and probably built a damn good business out of it. Yeah somebody bigger might have taken the design and sold more than we were able too. But we dang sure weren't able to produce what we could have after the patent money was burned up.

The company went broke a couple years later.

After the Patentwell... like was said above you gotta protect it with more lawyers, and that's bigger money than the original patent.

Patents ain't for us wee folks.
Just make the blade and get on with your life.

How many makers make a blade today based on Bob Loveless design?

Ever body in the knife community knows it is Bob's design and you made it.
(if I made the knife I'm damn sure not going to put Bob's name on it.)

That takes nothing away from Bob in the least.

No matter how hard I try I cannot make a Loveless Knife. :D:D:D

My .02
 
hey my thing is, if i see a knife i like but they over charge way too much and the rip off is made of crap materials, ill make my own for my use. ill make improvements on the design an chages to suite my taste and needs. but i would always give them due credit by saying i was inspired or something by the companies knife. but i would never sell an exact copy of someone elses knife. i think there has to be a 15% change in the product to void copyrights and patents.
 
In our little custom knife word, asking for permission - and, if granted, be sure to give credit to the original designer -is usually enough to solve most troubles.
I have been in this situation with a recent custom order and the original makers of the knife promply allowed me to use their design, on wich mine was inspired. And let me take this oportunity to thank the Graham brothers for that!
Of course there wil alweays be guys too smart for that, and that´s where trouble starts...:rolleyes:
 
I have been making Loveless drop point hunters for over 22 years.


Luckily, I copied the templates in his shop with his gracious permission.


Thats the way a lot of knifemakers are. They are more than willing to help, if you will bother to ask and give them credit where its due.

Of course, we all understand that the Tom Mayo, Hawaii logo was on those knives.............NOT BOB LOVELESS/Riverside.

that just wouldnt be right!!!!!! :( :p :(
 
Drop point hunters with talonite blades and titanium handles, Tom? :D
 
well i was looking at strider knives for the first time and i saw a little para wrapped chisel ground dagger that i really liked. i looked on the price list and it was $250!!!!!!!!! i dont care how quality it is i can make one from "better" steel anyway. for god sake it was stainless! im sorry SS fans but im no putting up that much dough for SS knives, or any knife for that matter. so i decided to make a carbon steel strider "inspired" piec from some of that leaf sping i cut up earlier, 6150 i think. should make a good thrower.
 
elvenbladesmith07 said:
well i was looking at strider knives for the first time and i saw a little para wrapped chisel ground dagger that i really liked. i looked on the price list and it was $250!!!!!!!!! i dont care how quality it is i can make one from "better" steel anyway. for god sake it was stainless! im sorry SS fans but im no putting up that much dough for SS knives, or any knife for that matter. so i decided to make a carbon steel strider "inspired" piec from some of that leaf sping i cut up earlier, 6150 i think. should make a good thrower.
Click to expand...


That sounds like a pretty ignorant statement, "i dont care how quality it is i can make one from "better" steel anyway. for god sake it was stainless!
Last I checked, Mick was useing s30 on alot of his knives, and Paul was doing the HT'ing.

"so i decided to make a carbon steel strider "inspired" piec from some of that leaf sping i cut up earlier, 6150 i think. should make a good thrower."

I guess we know what you qualify as better steel now..especially since you just want to throw it anyway.

It soundsmore like you're irritated at the price of the Strider knives and anything else.
 
yeah i was pretty outraged, but ive seen alot of knives go for alot more though. id still prefer carbon steel over stainless. i dont know why i hate stainless so much. bad expiriences i guess. i used to buy alot of budk junk so thats why i never use or buy SS. its just $250 for a knife that is chisel ground on one side and hallow on the other which are easy grinds that even i can do. and it just has some gun-kote and paracord wrapped around it. add to that my dislike of SS and you get ignorant remarks like the one above.
 
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