Question on Inferring Law Correctly

F

Frostwood

Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
27
According to one of the great resources shootist16 has provided us with, I found the following about Colorado law:

Colorado - Criminal Code Section 18-12-101. Definitions...
(e) "Gravity knife" means any knife that has a blade
released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of
gravity or the application of centrifugal force, that when
released is locked into place by means of a button,
spring, lever, or other device... (f) "Knife" means any
dagger, dirk, knife, or stiletto with a blade over 3-1/2
inches in length, or any other dangerous instrument
capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing
wounds, but does not include a hunting or fishing knife
carried for sports use. The issue that a knife is a
hunting or fishing knife must be raised as an affirmative
defense. (j) "Switchblade knife" means any knife, the
blade of which opens automatically by hand pressure
applied to a button, spring, or other device in its
handle... (a.3) "Ballistic knife" means any knife that has
a blade which is forcefully projected from the handle by
means of a spring-loaded device or explosive charge.
- 18-12-102. Possessing a dangerous or illegal weapon... (1)
As used in this section the term "illegal weapon"
[includes]... gravity knife, or switchblade knife... {or
ballistic knife}. (3) A person who knowingly possesses a
dangerous weapon commits a class 5 felony.
- 18-12-105. Unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon -
unlawful possession of weapons. (1) A person commits a
class 2 misdemeanor if he knowingly and unlawfully:
(a) Carries a knife concealed on or about his person...
(2)... affirmative defense... (a) A person in his own
dwelling or place of business... (b) A person in a private
automobile... (c) [written permit] (d) A peace officer...

Colorado Case Law:
"The definition of 'knife' in subsection (1)(f) of this
section is sufficiently specific to give fair warning of
the proscribed conduct and is therefore constitutional..."
(1992)
http://www.knife-expert.com
Click to expand...

This means I cannot conceal a knife which has a blade greater then 3 1/2 inches. However, is it legal to carry a hunting knife with a blade of about 7 inches in a sheath which is connected to my belt and is not being concealed? Basically I'm asking if I can carry a large knife on me, in a protective sheath, in public, and in full view and not hidden.

Just wondering...

P.S. First post!
 
Congrats on your first post. I hope we get to here from you often.

I also did a check of Colorado law on Lexis Nexis and it does appear that you are correct. Keep in mind that local ordinances can be more restrictive, so you may want to check your local statutes as well.

Here is a link where you can check a few cities for their ordinances:

http://www.lawsource.com/also/usa.cgi?co#Z9Q
 
Frostwood -

My first reply too! I've been lurking here for a while. I agree with your interpretation of the Colorado law as written. I went a step further and contacted two local police stations to get their interpretation of the law and also to find out if I could obtain a written permit to conceal a knife with a blade longer that 3.5".

What I found out was very disappointing. The police use a simple rule of thumb to apply the law, a blade of over 3.5" on your person is illegal and one of less than 3.5" is legal. This does not include wilderness carry. To their knowledge there is no written conceal carry permit to obtain eventhough it is written into the law.

I'm a law abidding citizen, but would like to carry some of my favorite knives - Spyderco Military, Chinook and Lum Tanto. Each of these has a blade length that exceeds 3.5" It appears to me that this would be an opportune time for citizens and knife manufacturers in Colorado to lobby for a change in knife laws as the concealled gun laws may be changing in Colorado. I don't want to be stopped and arrested for passively carrying a knife with a blade that exceeds 3.5"
 
Thank you both for your replies! As it is in Boulder county, it is illegal to carry any knife that is concealed. That means even if it is a 2 centimeter blade it is illegal. I guess I will need to find a knife that is 3 1'2 inches or less which can be easily attatched to my pocket or belt and stays in plain view.

I am interested in trying to get my opinion out about these knife laws. I would be willing to set up and a host a website dedicated to just this area. If you're interested, then maybe we could get some more people involved.
 
Frostwood -

It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) it is illegal under Colorado law to conceal a knife with a blade length of greater than 3.5". A knife is not considered a knife by legal definition if it's blade length is less than 3.5" and therefore may be concealed. So in your example, you could have a less than 3.5" knife in your pocket. My question is how is blade length measured (cutting edge or until it reaches the handle)? Also, what constitutes concealed? If a clip hangs out of your pocket is that concealed? If you have your knife in a sheath on your belt but it's cold out and a jacket is covering it, is that concealed?

I'd be happy to help bring more reasonable knife carry laws to Colorado!
 
I was also wondering the definition of concealed. Thank you for letting me know the true definition of a knife. It's good to know I can atleast carry a small knife at work for opening boxes and cutting open bags. My brother got in trouble and had to go to court for concealed weapons. To my understanding he had a knife in his pocket, but it was not totally concealed. If you have any ideas on running a website, please email me.
 
Frostwood -

If you have any concerns about carrying I would check with your local police dept. The laws maybe different in Boulder, but what I have told you is what I've uncovered from talking to the police in Jeffco and Denver.

Does your brother live in Colorado? What were the reasons for his stop or identification that he was carrying? What was the outcome of his court visit?
 
Originally posted by mtgoat
Frostwood -

If you have any concerns about carrying I would check with your local police dept. The laws maybe different in Boulder, but what I have told you is what I've uncovered from talking to the police in Jeffco and Denver.

Does your brother live in Colorado? What were the reasons for his stop or identification that he was carrying? What was the outcome of his court visit?
Click to expand...

He lives in the town that I do, and this town is not known for friendly or rational cops. I believe he was out shopping down town, and he had a knife, which was not concealed. It was his interpretation of the law that it was ok to carry a knife if it is in full view. He got in trouble for concealed weapons, had the knife taken away (never got it back) and he had 72 hours of community service and 3 years probation (not to mention the endless drug tests and court fines)
 
What was the size of the knife your brother was carrying? Fixed Blade? What town in Colorado?

The main issue I have is that a knife can be both a tool and a self defensive weapon. Many people including myself don't think twice about carrying a knife as it is not in the same league as a gun, but carries many of the same penalties. I was unaware of the law until after I purchased a knife from a local knife outlet. The knife I purchased is illegal to carry in Colorado due to its length. I assumed that the outlet would at least warn me of the law or hand me a written copy of the law if I might be in violation of it.

It suprises me that knife manufacturers don't make more of an effort to lobby for more reasonable knife laws. The only thing I can think of is that they are in bed with the public (possible law violators) and the law enforcement community.
 
It was a fixed blade of about 4". It was in Longmont, which is in Boulder county. I'll drop you an email about maybe trying to get Colorado knife laws more rational.
 
Welcome to the forums, dudes!

Some Colorado manufacturers got together with AKTI a couple of years ago to talk about CO's knife laws. I'm not sure what came of that discussion. You might want to write AKTI and ask for details. http://www.akti.org/legislation.asp?n=49

It's great that bills are currently making their way through the Colorado legislator that would end crazy local gun laws and liberalize concealed gun carry. (Pro-gun forces win in Senate) It is strange though that carrying a pocket knife will remain illegal, while more people are allowed to carry guns. :grumpy:

About the definitions of "concealed" and "blade length": those terms aren't defined in statutes, so it's up to a court to decide what they mean. A weapon is usually "concealed" if it can not be readily identified as a weapon and if it's within reach. I haven't seen a case that deals with whether or not a folder with a visible pocket clip is concealed. I have seen two or three court cases where blade length was measured, and it was measured differently in each case! :rolleyes:
 
I'm a fan and reader of the AKTI website. It seems unreasonable to allow guns over knives. I think everything will probably be atleast a little bit better in the future. For now I'll try to stick beneath 2 1/2" until I make a local call to the police department and ask them.
 
Cerulean -

Thanks for the info especially about AKTI! What is your understanding of the law above (Max carry)? I think this Colorado law at best is very gray and at worst is entrapment as it allows police, lawyers and courts to make up their own rules as they go along. What do you use as your EDC? Are you aware of any conceal written permit option as noted in 18-12-105 (c) above? If there's one on the books it seems that law abidding citizens ought to be able to apply for conceal knife carry permits. My understanding is that Colorado's carry limits use to be 4.5". That seems much more reasonable. 5" would be ideal in my opinion as it would allow citizens to carry the majority of folding knives that knife maufacturers sell.

To me this potential passage of the gun law provides concerned citizens and knife manufacturers with a Golden (pun intended) opportunity to make some changes.

Frostwood -

Shoot me an e-mail whenever you'd like!
 
I've grappled with this for a while. I have a concealed HANDGUN permit, but I still can't carry a blade >3.5".

I've choose to interpret method of measuring blade length to be the most-restrictive. That is from the handle / scales to the tip is "blade", no matter where the cutting edge starts. This has caused me all KINDS of problems when ordering custom knives, as many / most makers only take the cutting edge into account, or "round" to 3.5" even when it's 3 5/8" or 3 3/4"!

I carry my Patton "Field Unit" around the house / yard, but outside of that, I switch to my Busse Active Duty or Dozier K1.

Patton-2.jpg

ad%20side%20shot.jpg

BAD-Dozier.jpg


Mike
 
Those are some nice knives, Mike! Great pics, too. :)

Colorado law seems to allow you to carry any type of knife openly. So, carrying a 7-inch fixed blade would be o.k. as long as it's not concealed. Some cities and counties have stricter ordinances, though.

There was a Supreme Court case a couple of years ago ("People v. A.P.E.") that clarified state law in a surprising way. They interpreted the law as saying that a knife with a blade 3.5 inches or longer is automatically a weapon and illegal to carry concealed. However, a knife with a blade less than 3.5 inches long may or may not be a weapon, and may or may not be illegal to carry concealed! It's up to the courts to decide that on a case-by-case basis.

Though a knife with a blade less than 3.5 inches is technically not a knife, it may be classified as "any other dangerous instrument capable of inflicting cutting, stabbing, or tearing wounds" (see definition "f" above).

Proving that a knife with a blade shorter than 3.5 inches is a weapon is difficult for a prosecutor to do though. Basically, the defendant has to use it as a weapon or freely admit that it's a weapon.

I personally try not to worry too much about the legalities of knife carry. Usually, I carry knives with blades under 3.5 inches, but sometimes I'll carry stuff concealed that's a bit larger.

Not that I want to convince anyone to break the law :eek: , but think about what it takes to get convicted: First, an officer has to search you and find a knife, then he has to decide to arrest you (or give you a summons or something), then a prosecutor has to decide that it's worth their time to bring charges against you, and then finally a jury has to convict you. It does happen of course, but concealed weapons charges aren’t that common, especially when they’re not paired with other charges of some sort.
 
Yeah, that's basically the answer I've gotten several times -- you're not LIKELY to have a problem.

Still scares me though. And I don't want to lose my concealed-handgun permit over a misdemeanor "weapons violation".

Mike
 
Mike - Great looking knives!

Cerulean -

Your response to the concealed carry part of the law is the same as my interpretation. When I questioned the police they consider "on or about a person" concealed. So in their view a 7" fixed blade in plain view is still concealed. Some law huh!

If stopped for a knife check only I was told too not to worry if carrying over 3.5". I agree it might take a lot of effort to get convicted, but I'm not interested in getting that far or being a test case. It seems Frostwood's brother, who was put through the wringer, thought he was in good shape.

Does anyone know about obtaining a written carry permit? I know I'd pass in a second. I'd like to carry my Spydie Military, Chinook and Al Mar SERE everyday without the possibility of any ridiculous police issues.
 
The thing I'd most be worried about is if they take my knife away from me. It happened to my brother, and it was a nice knife too. I believe I will continue carrying the knife clipped to my belt. I'm just going to be careful not to take it in to private places. I do believe that if I do get hassled that I will explain to him why I carry the knife with me, how it isn't concealed, etc. I think that if I get problems I would just be asked to put the knife in my car and take it home.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top