Question On tempering an Italian Long sword

shane wink

shane wink

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Sep 14, 2010
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I finally have had time to start on an Italian Long sword today. I have been researching this project for a time, purchasing research books and talking with some historians on the Arma Site on the evolution or refinement of the long sword through the medieval 200 periods on into the Renaissance of the 1600's. The goal is to craft a historically accurate Italian Long sword and then beat hell out of a Pell with it. I chose the Italian LS because its design leans more toward thrusting attacks than just cutting and that it lasted through the 1300-1600's pretty much unchanged as it fared well against most all the armor on the battle field of the eras.

So today I was able to spare a couple hours and get the blade laid out and profiled. I did not get around to filing down the stress risers between the hilt and tang but put the file guide on in preparation of doing so next week.

Heating the blade and quenching it are not an issue but I have yet to be able to find out any information on how the blades were tempered. I suspected deferentially hardened but none of the books I have say much on the tempering but they do go into great detail about the construction of most the European swords that survive today being of san mai construction after 900AD.

Any of our sword smiths have an answer on how to temper the blade once its quenched short of having a low temp salt pot?
 
I don't know what books you have been reading that claim that European swords are of Japanese construction (SanMai) after 900 as that contradicts about 30 books I have as well as my personal observations of swords at the Met, and the Higgins, and the couple I have held.
-Page
 
Medieval Swordsmanship:Illustrated Methods and Techniques By John Clements on page 67 his words are "many if not most swords after 900 AD were of the sandwhich type construction ..." San-mai is not solely a japanesse invention. Some fo the most famous fragments are of blades that had twisted damascus cored running through the center and can be seen in the fullers with carbon steel laminated on each side of the damascus.

John is the founder of ARMA and is the guy behind most of the PBS and other films on European weapons. He is listed as one fo the best historians on the subject and is responsible for the documentation and preservation of most of the the existing manuals from the old masters. In his book listed above he goes into great detail about the construction of long swords that survive today as well as shards recovered from castle sites. He also covers blade cross sections in detail along with pics showing them to be chisel ground or slightly lenticular. The book is very interesting.

The book itself is not too expensive but is a historical supplement on medieval arms and armor as well as the reprinted teaching forms from the ld masters as their called as well as their flourishes. It is written to be applicable alongside actual training with on of Johns groups. John is also the man behind the movie reclaiming the blade.
 
If you are making a mono-steel sword, I would use a mono-temper :)

Temper the entire sword at a temper to yield a low Rc50s.
 
I am well aware of John Clements. I will leave the negative portion of my commentary about him at that. He has written some good things, but I will say that I find his interpretation of the pattern welded blades as San Mai is somewhat absurd, and that as steel manufacture improved, monosteel blades became superior. By well before the Renaissance, patternwelded blades disappear.

-Page
 
sunshadow said:
I am well aware of John Clements. I will leave the negative portion of my commentary about him at that. He has written some good things, but I will say that I find his interpretation of the pattern welded blades as San Mai is somewhat absurd, and that as steel manufacture improved, monosteel blades became superior. By well before the Renaissance, patternwelded blades disappear.

-Page
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I understand man and not arguing with ya. I understood him to be making a general statement about long swords only and ending in the 1600's/ end of the Renaissance.

Stacy your right but I am loking more at what piece of equipment to use to temper it. Sam mentioned using a pipe filled with oil and heating the pipe/oil with a torch to desired temp. I am not familiar with this technique so still searching and looking for other options.
 
If you're making it from modern steel then your best bet to start with is a fairly standard, modern through-hardening and standard tempering cycles. I won't start a discussion about period iron/steel working methods here, but unless you are making your own bloomery steel then the heat treating methods used in period will give less than optimal results with a modern steel alloy.

No offense to Clements, but I suspect that if he were to write that book again today that he might make some changes. The study of medieval weapons and their actual use (outside of Hollywood) is not conclusive at this time and perhaps never will be. He is not the first person to make assertions that have been later dismissed or disregarded in the face of new evidence.
 
The steel is not the issue. I am using 5160 and work with it at the forge but in this case I will be doing it stock removal. I have forged 30" machetes from 5160 and have the equipment to properly heat treat them but my tempering oven is to short for a 45" long sword.

I do agree with the mono steel becoming the standard and that is what surprised me when i read it in Johns book. I only have knowledge that comes from reading and a few pics taken at museums. I a not an authority but I am putting forth my time money and effort to learn the craft which is more than most who just ask having done nothing nor sought out anything. Why is it so hard to ask serious questions about sword construction? The last sentance is not a rant but just a question among fellow craftsmen.
 
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My reply was posted about 6 minutes after your 3rd post so I was typing while you posted and was not able to address that. A low-temp salt bath would be the ideal heating apparatus for tempering, IMO. A mar-quenching/mar-tempering setup with the appropriate oil would be a close second. Next in my opinion would be a digitally controlled oven, followed by a digitally controlled forge with a baffle. Failing any of these, you will probably have to use your own judgement as to the best way to accomplish the temper, using what is availible to you. Not knowing what you have to work with, I can't offer much more than that.
 
Thanks Justin. Everyone's post was fine and please don't ever read my post as being mean spirited or anything more than open disscussion. I apologize if my writting style appears as such.

Yes its looking like I may be building a low temp salt pot after all. As for equipment I have the standard fare of digital oven, dragon's breath forge, floor presses, variable speed grinder, welding and cutting rigs and a complete wood shop. The forge is separate from the main shop to reduce the chance of burning up the joint.
 
If you oven allows ( or can be plugged temporarily with K-wool or firebrick) you can temper one end of the sword for two hours, and then turn it around and temper it from the other end for two hours. Cool off and repeat. That's a lot easier than building a 48" salt pot.
 
bladsmth said:
If you oven allows ( or can be plugged temporarily with K-wool or firebrick) you can temper one end of the sword for two hours, and then turn it around and temper it from the other end for two hours. Cool off and repeat. That's a lot easier than building a 48" salt pot.
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I have never heard of such but this is very doable! The oven is 25.6" deep so handling a 45" blade would work. Thanks Stacy! My wife will appreciate your post as I was just talking to her about purchasing the materials and salt from high temp
 
Tempering is only part of the problem. The sword will surely warp, and you will need to have a method ready to straighten it. One of the most successful methods I found is clamping it to a straight piece of steel during tempering. It's not foolprove, but it normally works. Another method is to attempt to straighten it immediately after quench. Get some good heat resistant gloves though. There's other methods as well, but I haven't yet used them. You're very ambitious, I can't image a 45" blade. Seems it would be too long to be useable, but I'll leave that to others who know more about swords than I do.
 
Thanks. Not too ambishous as I have been forging out 30" blades for a year now by hand and some with the trip hammer. I have been working on longer and longer blades for a couple of years improving with each, however this is the longest I have attempted but you can only grows so much from reading before you must just get out in the shop and do it. Yes there is a steep learning curve but having prepared over the years will help.

Thank you for the advice about clamping the blade to reduce warpage.
 
Oh the 45" is the overall lenght and is within historically correct dimensions. The blade itself is 35"
 
Good.
Open the oven door and use a folded piece of K-wool and/or a stack of fire bricks to close the opening. The steel in the center of the sword will be fine with getting a four hour temper. It would probably take a metallurgical lab to tell the ends from the center as far as any variance in hardness.

If you have a door switch, you will need to by-pass it.
 
sunshadow said:
I am well aware of John Clements. I will leave the negative portion of my commentary about him at that. He has written some good things, but I will say that I find his interpretation of the pattern welded blades as San Mai is somewhat absurd, and that as steel manufacture improved, monosteel blades became superior. By well before the Renaissance, patternwelded blades disappear.

-Page
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I know the conversation has moved on ...
but I just have to agree with Sunshadow ... An equivalence drawn between these techniques for the purposes stated is jarring in its absurdity.
If an 'expert' makes such an equivalence in print, he has badly impeached his credibility. It's one thing to be unaware of certain details of your topic, but another to fill in the blanks with BS.
(I know nothing of Clements. Just commenting on an apparently published error.)

As to the OP's project, A long, low-temp salt pot is ideal for this, IMO.
As already mentioned, a sword ground pretty close to net will almost certainly warp in HT. I find it handy to correct small problems while the blade is still hot from the end of the temper cycle. What's nice about the salt (aside from it's ability to precisely provide even heat in a controlled 'atmosphere') is that it's convenient to maintain the temper temperature if additional time is required to finesse a support situation by simply putting the workpiece back in for a few moments.
If I didn't have this equipment, I'd only rough-grind the blade before sending out for HT (leaving a lot of stock) and grind to net, being super careful not to apply too much pressure behind any portion being ground. A little heat and pressure is a great way to induce warping and you'll be chasing that down forever (it doesn't take a whole lot of heat either).
IMO control over the HT process is pretty much essential for sword-length pieces, but there are guys grinding swords from stock and getting it done, so it is possible, I guess.
If you're doing more of this sort of work, maybe this is a good time to build a salt pot!
Good luck with your project!:thumbup:
 
Thus far the making of the sword aspect is solely a personal quest and a way of coping with my brothers untimely passing. When we were younger and I back from basic training my younger brother wanted to make a sword like object. With passion and great zeal that can only be innately kindled in the relams of fantasy due two redneck brothers of the 80's we set off to the smithy. Of course what came of that was nothing anyone here would call a sword but to my brother it was as if he had drawn it from the stone himself. He was 10 and I was 17.

We talked about that ruddy rusted piece of steel a lot and when I started learning to make real knives he asked me if I could make a real sword. I told him I could not but maybe some day I could. Shortly after he asked me about making one he had an accident with a zeroturn mower. We were both firefighters and I was brought to the scene. I worked on him all the way to the hospital but I could see one of his lumbar vertabra had been pushed out severing his spinal cord.

While he was in Alabama at UAB learning to do things from a wheel chair I had to pound the living crap out.of something to cope and it was the I then I remembered him asking about making a sword. I promised myself then to learn and make him the real deal. I ordered several books and began studying as well as getting lessons from a Knifemaker friend of mine forging bolos and machetes. Almost the day I signed up with blade forums we were told he had developed an inoperable brain tumor due to the stress caused by the accident. That was June 2010 and he passed Christmas Eve of the same year.

Never did learn to make that sword but never quit on it either. We all started making knives for different reasons but I wager the passion and excitement wefelt when first we beheld the knife shaped object we had placed so much time and sweat in still pushes each of us on too the next one.

So thanks for the help and guidance thus far and getting one step closer to fullfilling what was asked for no other reason than because he asked.
 
Wow, that's a terrible story. I'm sorry for your loss.
Again, best of luck on your project!
 
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