Question on Uncle Henry 440A steel

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winchester73

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On most of the other sub forums here like the general forum , 440A is really looked down upon. I would say the exception is Bucks 420HC with the Paul Bos heat treatment which has been said turns it in to something akin to a higher grade steel. Was Schrade's heat treatment of their stainless steels similar?
 
A similar topic got me self-exiled from AAPK but I'll bite. I'm quite opinionated around this issue and I may be wrong too but I'm sticking to my guns until someone can convince me otherwise. Buck fans and dealers: please don't take this personal and string me up!

Yes, Schrade knew how to heat-treat steel. They were in business for 100 years. Total number of man-hours experience in heat treating? A b-zillion. Add in the man-hours experience at Ulster, New York Knife, Camillus and Imperial etc which were all absorbed into the Baer family of knife making knowledge? A zillion ba-zillion hours. I'll take the stand Buck knew nothing about heat treating that Schrade wasn't aware of. They just marketed their knowledge better when the winds of change were blowing in the direction of reduced production costs and off-shore production.

While I have nothing against Paul Bos it seems to me knife forums are currently a bit dogmatic when it comes to his magical abilities to turn one steel into another while still saving Buck huge bucks by fine-blanking. I think he's been turned into the Buck advertising gimmick that justifies extensive 420HC use as well as being the expert in heat treating steel that he is. I don't doubt his skills, just his unique Buck-only magical alchemy.

Human's have been heat treating metals since antiquity. http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Heat+Treatment+of+Metals

Japanese sword-smiths of yesteryear? No one can say they weren't experts at complex heat treating processes. Some of their compleat knowledge may even be lost to us now.

I think by the time Schrade hit it's pace in the '80s they had learned a thing or two about heat treating steel but then again maybe Paul Bos was both the first and the last human to figure out how to do it :rolleyes:

Quality control is another matter and my understanding is that Buck's quality control as per the Bos model is very good. That's why a Buck 420HC knife isn't a piece of garbage. It's as good as 420HC gets and no better. I expect Schrade wasn't cutting many corners either until they were going down the drain and maybe not even then.

I'd love to see some hardness/tempering test results comparing Schrade post-2000 420HC to current Buck 420HC. I expect hardness and tolerances would be about the same. I suspect much "reverse engineering", "industrial espionage" and testing of competitors products has always occurred in the knife industry as in most industries. Paul Bos might have insisted on major quality control but he wouldn't have known anything the Schrade experts were ignorant of imho. Buck doesn't include a Pixie-dust rub in his "unique" process.
 
Thinkstoomuch, I can't say one way or another on Schrade's heat treating process vs Paul Bos'. And I agree that you can not make a steel more than what it's theoretical greatest potential is. HOWEVER, not all heat-treaters follow the exact same regimens, nor use the same quality of equipment, and therefore their results are NOT all the same. Many steels can be hardened at a range of temperatures (the full range being recommended on the steel's spec sheet), and subsequently tempered at a range of temperatures. Using two totally different regimens you could end up with exactly the same Rockwell hardness, but the individual blades could perform radically different due to retained austenite, grain size, or the whether or not all the alloying elements had gone fully into solution.
 
stevomiller said:
Thinkstoomuch, I can't say one way or another on Schrade's heat treating process vs Paul Bos'. And I agree that you can not make a steel more than what it's theoretical greatest potential is. HOWEVER, not all heat-treaters follow the exact same regimens, nor use the same quality of equipment, and therefore their results are NOT all the same. Many steels can be hardened at a range of temperatures (the full range being recommended on the steel's spec sheet), and subsequently tempered at a range of temperatures. Using two totally different regimens you could end up with exactly the same Rockwell hardness, but the individual blades could perform radically different due to retained austenite, grain size, or the whether or not all the alloying elements had gone fully into solution.
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Yup. I agree. Buck's 420HC knives are likely far better than the worst Chinese no-name 420HC knives (even at the same quoted hardness). Imperial Schrade Corp would have known all this too and cared about it's effects on their products. Imperial Schrade had the money to buy all the latest equipment Buck had. Ellenville factory was not a dark cave. Maybe the Richard's factory in Sheffield was though ;) Don't forget to add-in all the experience from Wostenholm I*XL as well. They knew how to heat treat too I suspect.

I'm sticking to my "Schrade USA quality equal to (or surpasses ;)) Buck USA" stand. :)
 
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I'll just add that Schrade and Camillus made Buck 301 knives under contract for a while. koldgold is the expert in this area and has all the variations with and without visible bolster pins etc.

That's two different Baer Empire companies that passed Buck's very own quality control. Doesn't that say something to the Buck-is-best folks? Buck themselves literally guaranteed the quality of Schrade and Camillus products (including the heat treatment).
 
winchester73 said:
On most of the other sub forums here like the general forum , 440A is really looked down upon. I would say the exception is Bucks 420HC with the Paul Bos heat treatment which has been said turns it in to something akin to a higher grade steel. Was Schrade's heat treatment of their stainless steels similar?
Click to expand...

What is steel? And what is Stainless Steel?

Schrade made their blades, for their knives from:
BG-42, D-2, 1095, 420, 420 MODIFED, 425 MODIFIED, 440A, 440B, 440C, ATS-34 and 154CM. :rolleyes:

I’m with Dave on this one; Schrade must have learned a little about heat treatment, of all those steels in 100 years.
 
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koldgold said:
What is steel? And what is Stainless Steel?

Schrade made their blades, for their knives from:
BG-42, D-2, 1095, 420, 420 MODIFED, 425 MODIFIED, 440A, 440B, 440C, ATS-34 and 154CM. :rolleyes:

I’m with Dave on this one; Schrade must have learned a little about heat treatment, of all those steels in 100 years.
Click to expand...

What knives did Schrade make with ATS-34 and 154CM?
 
I'd forgotten about the Barnett. The Schrade Roger's SR01 "change blade" was ATS-34 as well.

Here's a quote from A.G. Russell I found regarding the RL-2 Loveless Hunter: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/215146/

"the blade material is 154CM at about 60 Rc"

Here's a letter from Walter Gardiner to Russell:

"Dear A.G.:
Here is the information requested:
Schrade manufactured 4,000 RL2 Schrade Loveless knives between 1975 and
1977. The blade steel was 154CM, the handle was made with solid brass
escutcheons fastened with custom tapered rivets and a solid brass guard.
I would not use this knife for everyday chores, especially if the owner has
all the original paperwork. While we don't estimate value, at last years
Blade Show one in fair condition without paperwork sold for $300.00. We
receive many emails about this knife it seems collectors love them.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
W.A.G."
 
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koldgold said:
Thanks Dave for that information,
The 154CM had me at a loss. I found a Schrade Flyer I have, on all the specifications for their blade steel used.
However, could not find any information on 154CM.

The RL-2 is one of my "must have knives", in my collection.

One of my RL-2 Loveless knives came with an invoice... Ken
image.php

image.php
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stevomiller said:
Many steels can be hardened at a range of temperatures (the full range being recommended on the steel's spec sheet), and subsequently tempered at a range of temperatures. Using two totally different regimens you could end up with exactly the same Rockwell hardness, but the individual blades could perform radically different due to retained austenite, grain size, or the whether or not all the alloying elements had gone fully into solution.
Click to expand...

Here's a quote from the 1973 Schrade catalog addressing your specific concerns over Schrade's ability to properly heat treat and perform quality control:

Regarding "Uncle Henry" knives: "Each blade is electronically heat treated, then tempered for uniform grain and maximum edge holding. Only those are selected which meet demanding "Uncle Henry" standards."

I'd like to hear Walter Gardiner and Paul Bos face-off regarding this issue. I think it would quickly if not immediately become a non-issue. I'd bet money that Mr. Bos respected/respects the heat-treat and quality-control abilities Imperial Schrade Corp. once possessed and his followers are the only ones who doubt it. I'd bet Imperial Schrade Corp respected Buck's abilities as well. These were two big players in the American knife industry at the time.

I've read that Uncle Henry Baer originally cursed the Buck 110 for being such a "perfect" knife. I'll bet the Buck's had a few sleepless nights thinking about the success of the "Uncle Henry" and "Old Timer" lines as well. Schrade and Buck both made millions of quality tools. Buck still does.

"America works with Schrade" ('80s slogan) because their knives cut things and don't break very often. That's the bottom line. Neither 420HC nor 440A are the "best" possible blade steel but both get the job done. I think we as collectors can get get mired down in trivial detail. These were/are hard-working user knives sold at a reasonable price. You get what you pay for. Schrade delivered quality and value for the money they charged.

Was the Schrade-Loveless RL-2 in 154CM a "better" knife than a Buck 110 or a Schrade LB-7? We all know the "correct" answer is "Yes" but really... My kept-sharp LB-7 shaves just fine. It opens envelopes and packages, carves wood, cuts string, cuts meat and fish etc. Would my package-opening experience have been any easier or more/less rewarding had it been my old 440C Buck 112 or a new 420HC Buck 110? Nope. Package would still be quickly opened because all three knives can take and hold an edge well enough for my needs. It's only the Elitist in me that "requires" higher-end blade steel to slice my cheddar when making a sandwich. :)
 
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Well back when there was the decision of getting an Old Timer(1095 carbon steel) versus getting an Uncle Henry in Plus Steel(440A Stainless)...there were complications so to speak...

*Some people assumed the word Plus Steel meant it was going to be better than carbon steel for spending a few extra dollars

*440A turned out to take longer to sharpen than carbon steel. As a stainless it had 0.75% in molybdenum for dulling resistance that's why it sharpens slower than 420HC.

*420HC has 0.45-0.50% in carbon and 440A has 0.65-0.75%...before it's heat treated

420HC from Buck is heat treated to 58rc and then cryo treated to toughen it up, without the cryo treatment the steel would dull much faster. It's a steel that's very selective in edge life-holds an edge to cutting weeds or carving wood, dulls quickly to cardboard or anything coarse.420HC just wasn't formulated with molybdenum or vanadium for performance like 440A...it's a very cheap stainless with a razor quality to it.440A was used because knife manufacturers knew it couldn't beat carbon steel so they went for a stainless that gave performance to match up going with rust resistance.440A got some bad rep when the steel was discontinued on American cutlery and imported junk steel knives stamped '440 Stainless' on the tang lured consumers in as competition. For smart consumers they learned they were being scammed and not getting the real steel,for the not so wise? That was their experience with 440A.Compared to common steels today 440A is getting more known again for holding it's edge to materials as a utility steel and since knife manufacturers weren't penny pinching their common steels back then I think both Old Timer and Uncle Henry were literally a juggle as to which someone would prefer
 
A major factor in steel changes for Schrade had to do with costs. Not just the initial costs of buying the steel, but the loss due to returns because carbon steel "stains". As knife knowledge waned among newer generations of buyers, this was seen as a defect in material. As far as changes in stainless, a part of that was due to the changes in processes. Some steels came only in rolls and some came in sheets. New fine blanking methods and machinery worked best with one rather than the other. This does not mean that either were bad. And in fact most casual knife owners could not tell the difference. Today you can buy later made Old Timers in stainless while those from just a few years earlier were carbon steel. This is evident in the Sharpfinger line and with some slipjoint patterns.
 
Well I'll say this for Schrade USA for bringing out the Uncle Henry line-if their Plus Steel was 420HC for so long I'd say people were wasting their time with that stainless...it's a stainless that just doesn't last for an everyday pocket knife and thankfully they stuck with 440A until the final years. I can't overhype it though because Imperial's Double Eagle line,Camillus and their contracted Sears knives used that stainless exclusively and everyone did good heat treatments.440A gave much better performance but still...there was a mixed crowd that even discriminated 440A's edge holding and sharpening ease to 1095.Yeah I encountered my share of individuals back in the 90's who bought an Old Timer solely on reputation and hated the steel because they knew nothing about carbon tool steel. I just didn't get the younger generations approach to getting one and not noticing why the blades turned dark grey on other peoples knives and required oil to maintenance. Pardon my negativity but that's your typical mindless consumer-one that doesn't read the blister pack and assuming every knife was stainless steel.If someone tested a 440A bladed Uncle Henry against Buck's 420HC on cardboard they'd find the Plus Steel proves a point when it comes to edge holding.The best tip I could give someone to avoid the 420HC Plus Steel would be to not buy the blue striped color scheme packaging by Schrade USA.That's the very late 90's/early 2000's packaging and poses a risk of getting the cheaper grade of stainless.
 
Frotier76 said:
Well I'll say this for Schrade USA for bringing out the Uncle Henry line-if their Plus Steel was 420HC for so long I'd say people were wasting their time with that stainless...it's a stainless that just doesn't last for an everyday pocket knife and thankfully they stuck with 440A until the final years. I can't overhype it though because Imperial's Double Eagle line,Camillus and their contracted Sears knives used that stainless exclusively and everyone did good heat treatments.440A gave much better performance but still...there was a mixed crowd that even discriminated 440A's edge holding and sharpening ease to 1095.Yeah I encountered my share of individuals back in the 90's who bought an Old Timer solely on reputation and hated the steel because they knew nothing about carbon tool steel. I just didn't get the younger generations approach to getting one and not noticing why the blades turned dark grey on other peoples knives and required oil to maintenance. Pardon my negativity but that's your typical mindless consumer-one that doesn't read the blister pack and assuming every knife was stainless steel.If someone tested a 440A bladed Uncle Henry against Buck's 420HC on cardboard they'd find the Plus Steel proves a point when it comes to edge holding.The best tip I could give someone to avoid the 420HC Plus Steel would be to not buy the blue striped color scheme packaging by Schrade USA.That's the very late 90's/early 2000's packaging and poses a risk of getting the cheaper grade of stainless.
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The vast majority of the knife buying public wouldn't know one stainless steel from another. Yes, I have knives from the past 125 years and I have both stainless steels you mention in a single Schrade pattern that I carry every day. Neither of them fall apart, are horribly hard to sharpen, dull quickly, pit and stain excessively or any other defect you ascribe to the steel. If you like the latest steel they used, good for you. Anyone stuck on buying only that one steel will be passing up a cornucopia of excelent patterns that were no longer produced in the latter days.
 
If you carefully re-read my post Codger there's nothing mentioned about stainless forming pits or staining excessively. People who do not know anything about 1095 and not the steel's traits I did mention.Schrade USA's last steel was 420HC and I'm not praising it I'm looking down on it.Maybe I'm not understanding your response...
 
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You are correct, I misread. You hate 420HC. Fewer donkeys, more corncobs for those of us who like Schrade knives of either steel. Or any of the alternative steels they used. There is a fair list of them.
 
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