Question

well what there saying is that the blade uses 2 types of steel. it has a core and a casing. now the casing is 1045, the 10 means its a carbon steel and the 45 means the there is .45 carbon in that steel. Its a very simple steel that has very little things added to it, i gess tecnicley the Carbon rangecan be between .43-.50%. Next the center of the blade is what thay are calling "9260 Silicon Alloy Spring Steel" realy it is just 9260 carbon steel, it is a little diffrent than the 1045 in that it has more things added to it. First it has a Carbon range of .56/.64% it also contains .75-1.00% manganese and 1.80-2.20% silicon. that is why thay are calling it a silicon steel. these added things help with edge retention and also make a harder blade which can become brittle, that is why thay incase it in the softer 1045 steel which does not get as hard as the 9260. the 1045 protects the harder 9260 from cracking or breaking upon impact. hope this helped you out
 
9260 is called an alloy steel .It has similar properties to 5160. The blade then is called a laminated blade . It doesn't make much sense since 9260 isn't 'brittle' and there's no real benefit to laminating it.
 
Ya i dont see any point eather, but say if the core was like 1095 or O1, a steel that can become brittle then i could see the point. but most of the time O1 when tempered back can be very strong but still hold a killer edge.
 
I have often wondered why a smith, would go to the trouble to laminate steels, when a single steel, differrentialy hardened, would give him all the properties of a good blade. What is the reasoning? Fred:confused:
 
Fred.Rowe said:
I have often wondered why a smith, would go to the trouble to laminate steels, when a single steel, differrentialy hardened, would give him all the properties of a good blade. What is the reasoning? Fred:confused:
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It was used to get the most use out of the precious high carbon steel available.
They could use a very thin piece of HC and sandwich it giving you a servicable thickness.

Chuck
 
The idea behind lamanite or sandwiching steels is hundreds of years old. good steel was very exspensive to make. and they realized that real only the cutting edge had to be a good high carbon steel that would hold a edge. also it was found with farm tools and weapons, like swords & hachets that there was some advantage to having a softer more flexable lower carbon steel to disapate shock and inpack while chopping down a tree or a person, It was less likely to shatter or break. 1095 carbon steel .95 percent is my favorite carbon steel I get it cherry red and differential heat treat it by dipping about 1/2 - 3/4 of a inch in a painters tray fill with peanut oil. smells great! the I file test for sound & brass rod test for edge retention. all of this should work great for 1045 Laurence
 
A C Richards said:
It was used to get the most use out of the precious high carbon steel available.
They could use a very thin piece of HC and sandwich it giving you a servicable thickness.

Chuck
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Since there is such an abundance of high qualitly carbon steels today, doing laminates is just an exercise, except to manufacturers wanting to save money on steel cost. Can you see a functional reason to laminate in modern knifeshops? Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Since there is such an abundance of high qualitly carbon steels today, doing laminates is just an exercise, except to manufacturers wanting to save money on steel cost. Can you see a functional reason to laminate in modern knifeshops? Fred
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but i wonder how much thay realy save on steel cost because of the time thay have to spend forging the billet. i thik its just easyer to just stick to one steel and go from there unless your doing damascus.
 
JTknives said:
but i wonder how much thay realy save on steel cost because of the time thay have to spend forging the billet. i thik its just easyer to just stick to one steel and go from there unless your doing damascus.
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In todays market i agree completely but when this process began it was a necessity. The average smith did not know how to carburize their material and could only get a few pieces of the high carbon material, usually in the form of an old file or similar. So you can make one knife out of the material or four. Now HC steel is readily available for those who know were to get it, so the time involved in laminating the blade would not really be practicle.

Chuck
 
A C Richards said:
The average smith did not know how to carburize their material and could only get a few pieces of the high carbon material, usually in the form of an old file or similar.
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Uh, not to be a smart-ass... but who made the files? I mean way back in the day?
 
GibsonFan said:
Uh, not to be a smart-ass... but who made the files? I mean way back in the day?
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OK, The smith made his own files. Now let's say the smith knew how to make his own High Carbon Steel. He would have to make a retort, Pack it with Iron or LC steel, then fill with carbonizing material. Seal the retort, put it into the forge and heat it for many hours, (when I had to case harden material it took 7 hours at 1700f). To acheive total transfromation it wil take even longer. Oh, also no electricity, so the bellows would have to be worked and the fire maintained all during the process. If the smith did not have an apprentice he would have to do it alone. This would all take time and materials to produce a very limited supply of HC steel. It was still more cost effective to use the steel in this manner. Now some one is going to bring up the japanese smiths changing carbon content in their steel in the forge. This is doing minimal changes not a total tranfromation. I do not think laminating is cost effective now, it can be intersting though to do san mai with Damascus and mono steel. Also material can be used on the outer layers you would not normally use for the cutting edge, ie nickel in the damascus.

Chuck
 
Cool, thanks for the answer Chuck. Makes perfect sense now that you explained it. Do you think Damascus evolved in a similar fashion, to make more efficient use of available materials? Seems reasonable based on what you're saying about labor being cheaper than materials back then.

BTW the Cheness Co. has a "how we make 'em" video on their site at http://www.chenessinc.com/theforge.htm . It's pretty fun to watch (at least for a newbie like me) and I think it gives a clue to their use of a labor-intensive technique. (Let's just say... it's not a union shop in your or my neighborhood) Conversely, they explain that they can sell the laminated blades for a little less than single steel blades, because the softer outer laminate comes up to polish much more quickly. So I guess with the labor force they employ, it does make sense for them to use the lam.
 
GibsonFan said:
Cool, thanks for the answer Chuck. Makes perfect sense now that you explained it. Do you think Damascus evolved in a similar fashion, to make more efficient use of available materials? Seems reasonable based on what you're saying about labor being cheaper than materials back then.


Most definitly. The best explanation/history on damascus I have ever heard was at the Napa Show last January. We had a round table discussion and three makers took questions from us in the peanut gallery. I cannot remeber who was there and I apologise for this but the explanations were great. They talked about bloomery iron and how it was stacked an forged out into swords etc. The also had done extensive research into the origins of th e steel. getting the best out if crude material is also why the Japanese smiths fold their steel. It is not magic and no mystcle powers are in the steel. It is just rudimentory metalurgy. Thanks for the thought provoking questions.

Get it hot and strike it hard.

Chuck
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they should be selling the laminate blade knives for more! due too the manly man work it takes to revive this anicent craftsmanship. I don't think these guys will be around long! unless they are all set in life and they are just having fun! Laurence
 
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