Questions about (buffalo?) horn

J

Justin King

Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
1,533
I am working on a piece that is based on an original 16th century dagger, with a black horn grip. The grip is waisted in shape and has a very narrow section near the pommel, with a stick tang construction. The grip I originally made (a couple of years ago, the project was shelved for some time) has a crack that appeared in the narrow section when I shaped it. The crack was partly calcified, but it was open on one end of the grip and even though I filled it, it is bothering me enough that I think I need to replace it.

My question is this-how likely is it that the next piece of horn roll that I order is going to have the same issue, or develop it in time? Is there a way to stabilize horn, or a species/variety of black or dark brown horn that tends to crack less that others?
This dagger has a relatively huge amount of time in it and I don't want this one detail to knock it back a notch. Any opinions are appreciated.
 
I don't have an answer for you on this Justin but will watch this thread with intrest as I have a knife that is think would look great with Buffalo horn.

I will say this I remember reading in a recent thread about it being bad about shrinking. That makes me a little nervous about using it on this particular knife, especially after reading your post about the cracking problem!

I would love to hear what everyone has to say about using buffalo horn, you know "the good the bad and the ugly about buffalo horn"! :D:D
 
Check out the HI forum we deal with a lot of Water Buffalo Horn there. I don’t think you can stabilize it but you need to keep it hydrated (mineral oil or hooflex) or it will dry and crack. It looks beautiful but it stinks to high heaven to sand on it.
 
Buffalo horn is from water buffaloes, BTW...not bison as many sellers state.

There is no way to prevent the horn from drying, changing color, and cracking, besides regular application of oils.

The alternate is to use a synthetic polymer material, use ebony, or blackwood. The synthetic looks very much like buffalo horn.
 
Thanks for the replies. Synthetic is not really an option considering the historical aspect of the piece. I hate to waste the work I have into the existing grip but considering that the assembly will be peened, I am going to make another one. I already had to make another blade when the first one recurved beyond use during the quench. I have a history of my own with this piece, you see...It is one of those projects that is so fraught with possibilities for misfortune that I didn't even want to mention it publicly until all the major hurdles were cleared.
I will post up pictures when it is done. I am still trying to find a non-copyrighted image of the original that I could post with it. It is a damnably elusive piece to reference, I am aware of only one extant photograph of it, which is already published in a book and not to be found online.
 
Justin you have peaked my curosity on what you are working on!

Stacey, do you have a refrence to the synthetic polymer version of water buffalo? After doing a google search I did not find anyone offering it for sale. I would prefer to use real water buffalo on the piece I am working on but I don't need the headaches associated with real buffalo!
 
Hey Justin,

I have no idea as to your design and flexibility regarding it, but wonder...

Can you do a laminate of some sort with the horn material? If laminated longitudinally it would likely circumvent the cracking shrinking issue. Or, you might put separate pieces of horn either side of the waist with another material for the waist?

Good luck! I'm looking forward to hearing/seeing more...

All the best, Phil
 
Hi Justin, Not just to echo what Stacy said but go a little further. Natural materials will shrink and expand forever as a result of changing climactic conditions and horn seems to be one of the worst offenders. It seems that the parameters of your project preclude diverging from traditional materials and design, given that, may I suggest something that I have done for quite some time and mentioned in a few other threads where this problem was discussed.

Securely bond the handle material to the tang and fittings at both the guard end and the pommel end but leave a little air space along the tang for most of the length of the handle. If you completely fill the handle with epoxy (or what ever you are using) the tubular shape of the handle material is not allowed to shrink when it must. The outside is forced to shrink around an un-yielding core, your tang and the epoxy core, it cannot so it splits. That's the reason that most natural materials split or warp, the outside is drying faster than the inside and it must shrink around a center that is not shrinking at the same rate or not at all.

You can leave air space by assembling the knife like you normally do but don't completely fill the handle with epoxy. Put the pommel on and peen the tang, stand the knife up on it's pointy end for a short while then flip the knife over onto the pommel end and let it set for a while like that. Then lay the knife on its belly or back. your epoxy will settle . What you should have is, a handle that is completely coated on the inside with both ends secure and the tang glued to the entire length of the handle with a small air space along its length. I'm talking like less than ten percent airspace.

A piece of horn that started out with no cracks should not develop any. I have been doing this for about ten years now and so far have had very good results, knock on wood.
 
Thanks for that, Mark. What you're saying makes sense, I guess I never though of it from the inside out, as it were. I ordered 2 new horn rolls today. I also got the blade off the grinder and got all the crosswise scratches rubbed out, so I guess it's safe to show a picture now:o
I know there is talent on here that could whip this out without breaking a sweat but this one tested most of my skills and a few of my nerves in the making. The fittings are forged and filed to shape from mild steel, blade is 5160, forged to a tapered blank and the bevels ground in. 17-1/2" overall, 12-1/2" blade, flat ground with a shallow fuller in the ricasso.
img_1467 (2).jpg
The original is in the Wallace Collection, the only photograph I have found of it is on p. 150 of "Arms and Armor of the Mediaval Knight" by David Edge and John Miles Paddock. A catalog of arms in the collection lists it as
"127. Dagger. The pommel is of fleur-de-lys shape; small drooping quillons
ending in spirally fluted knobs. Dec.: none. Horn grip of hexagonal section
narrowing to fit the base of the pommel. The blade, 12-1/2 ins. long, of
diamond section, back edged and grooved 2-7/8 ins. from the hilt.
Probably German, about 1530 (1109)"

There do not appear to be any images of it online.
 
That looks very cool, when you get it refitted, I would really like to see more pictures. And a sheath? I'm happy to be of help.
 
Mark Knapp said:
And a sheath? I'm happy to be of help.
Click to expand...

If you are familiar with sheaths from the period then I might discuss that with you. There is no original to copy and sheaths from this period are not really in my knowledge base. I haven't really decided what to do about that detail yet.

I appreciate your advice and comments, I will do a thread on this one when it is finished.
 
Justin King said:
If you are familiar with sheaths from the period then I might discuss that with you. There is no original to copy and sheaths from this period are not really in my knowledge base. I haven't really decided what to do about that detail yet.

I appreciate your advice and comments, I will do a thread on this one when it is finished.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I could have written that more clearly. I meant I'm interested in what you had planned for a sheath, and that I was happy if I was able to help on the handle. I have no expertise in those things. I think Stacy has studied the stuff quite a bit though, and I'm sure he would be happy to help.
 
Ah, no worries. I misunderstand a lot of things even when they are clear...About the sheath, we will have to see. I may go with a presentation box of some sort for this one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top