Questions about initial stack and layer thickness of a billet of PWS

shane wink

shane wink

Joined
Sep 14, 2010
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With a few weeks of vacation coming up I will have time to weld up my first billet of pattern welded steel for a 3 drop point hunters I plan to give as gifts. I am planning on using 1084 and 15n20 for the billet and have been going over all the details and have a few questions.

I was thinking the 1084 needs to be thicker say 3/16 to 1/4 with the 15n20 being 1/8. Does this sound correct?

How many layers and how long do I need the stack pieces to be for the initial weld to have enough metal to make 3 fixed blades 9.5 by 1.5?

For a simple pattern, meaning draw it, cut it, fold it, repeat, how many layers for a working blade ? I am figuring 100-150.

After all the forge welding I am assuming I will need to stress relieve/normalize the billet, 1 2 or 3 Times to non magnetic?

What is the best flux to use?

Anything you can think of to pass along I did not ask?

thanks

Shane
 
Well this all depends. It sounds like you are making a random pattern billet. If you are using a power hammer I would go with a billet that is 1.5x6x4. this will should give you enough to make your 3 blades. Now that is if you don't have any problems like cold shuts etc. The 1/4x1.5 1084 sounds good but finding 1/8 15n might be tough. Thick stuff runs .09. Have not seen any over .1" so if you can find it great. I normally double up 1/16th to get to the 1/8. How long you leave it in depends on the heat of your forge. It sounds like you have very little experience and none with making Damascus. Have you done any forging? If you have then great if not your really need to work up to the damascus. I am assuming you have read the stickies, there are several here that have how to's on their website on making D. Good luck and let us know how things turned out.
 
Aldo has .125 15N20, but I have found that the .72 that he has is about perfect for use with 1/4 1084.
 
That's right, Aldo had a special run done. Forgot bout that one. But I too have found that the .07 or .09 to be perfectly adequate for most PW.
 
AC is right on size wise, but that is one big billet if you are not familiar with the process. I'd try a smaller billet for one blade for your first try 1 1/2 x 2 x 4. This is still a large billet and will give you a finished billet of 1/4 x 1 1/2 x 12 inches.

Good luck, Fred
 
Thanks for the information and yes I have been forging for a couple years with a real blown forge and have both treadle hammer and two little giant trip hammers. I have forged many fixed blade Skinner's and recently a 28" kukri machete without the trip hammer from start to finish from 5160 barstock.

Am a pro LOL heck no! I do more stock removal than anything with the except when its cold since where I live its just too hot to run the forge otherwise. I would say I am a driven hobbyist with the proper equipment and desire to learn and to try. I have been forging tools and small knives then moved to larger drop points and Bowie's as well as the bolo and kukri machetes. I know little about making pws except what I have read and that's why I am asking before moving forward on it.

I understand there are many people here with desire to craft items beyond their skill set and equipment however that is not the case here.

I will not be making the billet alone but with another Smith who train under Al Pendray, Todd Yellverton, who makes random pws several times a year but I don't like to go into something without knowing why to chose what and how it effects the billet. Yes I can ask Todd everything but again I like to do some research before starting.

Thanks

Shane
 
As far as the billet size making the smaller billets makes sense to me. The reason I asked is some have mentioned just making the stack slightly longer and thicker since I would be using the trip hammer. I am worried about it slipping and sliding if too big bust since I have never made any I don't know how much is too much or too little.

I had checked Aldo before I made the original post and saw his 15n20 thickness but will check again on the thinner size.
 
Keep in mind that if your welding using a hammer, you'll want to keep the billet as short as possible. The surface area of the dies on a hammer limit the contact area. I've welded with both a hammer and a press and with the press there is no limit within reason, with the hammer I tend to shorten the stack as much as possible.
Keep us posted on how the welding works out, I'm interested, Fred
 
If you figure out how much the blades will weigh, and add about 30% for grinding and scale and stuff that should work out about right. So much of that depends on if you are forging to shape and forging your bevels in,Full tang or stick, and if you have bad welds to work around, ect... For a random pattern, I think it looks best to forge your bevels in as much as possible. Other wise you get lines running along the cutting edge. At the end I try to leave it rough, take a ball pein and put some dents in it, cut into it a little with a grinder part way through the forging ect. to make more interesting.

20 Mule Team works fine for flux. It will bubble up and try to fall off on your first heat, but after that I don't let it get below the melting point of the flux, so that isn't to much of an issue.

Like everyone else has said, about twice the 1084 as 15n20.

It's best to grind between stacks. Takes more time, but if time was a worry, you wouldn't be making your own pws.

Think of squeezing out the flux when you are fist welding. Just like toothpaste. Start from one end and with overlapping blows, little bites, move to the other end. Make sure your stack is flat or crowned, but NOT a belly!!

Keep it hot, keep it clean, and squeeze out the flux and it should work. Oh ya, make sure to wear your lucky boxers!!

There are many better qualified to answer these questions, but these are things that I have learn...most of them the hard way. Good luck
 
Thanks Fred, I will document it all with pics and am looking forward to getting started on it. I did the same when forging the kukri and its posted on another site.
 
BTW, if you have never done a stack, be aware that the red hot flux will shoot out of the billet at quite high velocity. It will travel a good distance in all directions. Make sure all people nearby have long leather aprons, eye protection, gloves, and are paying attention. A water hose placed at ready will put out any small fire when a stray flux ball finds that pile of leaves or an old newspaper in the corner.
Final comment - Hot flux has a great affinity for falling in your shoes. It is best to wear high top boots with the pants legs over the boot tops.
 
Hmm, I almost always lay out my billets so the 15N20 and 1084 are about even in thickness, or at least 2/3 anyway.

If you have any interest in seeing how I do it, just click on my signature link. I don't always do the dry welding... but I did do it in that thread. It's hard to get a bad weld if you do a sealed, dry weld.

Best of luck with your project! :)
 
Stacy Nick thanks guys. Yes I will watch the link.

Stacy you are correct and I have glasses, apron, glove and boots ready

I made a call to Dan Graves and he set me up and since the trip hammers may cause me some issues he invited me to come up on the 8th of Dec to use his hydralic press and we would spend the day making billets for us all. I am really looking forward to meeting Dan and learning from him as well.

I will still be taking pics and will post them as well as the billet for a katana project I have been working on.

Thanks

Shane
 
I don't have much to add, I've never made a pattern welded billet by myself but I did do one with Chad Nichols help and learned quite a lot along the way. I had forge welded mild steel before I went to him for help. He had a press and a lot of know how that no doubt contributed to the success. The best tip I got that I didn't see mentioned here is make sure the area at the end of the handle (rebar/whatever) where it is welded to the billet is a consistent near yellow temperature before you do the first weld. I hope that makes sense...don't just start pressing when the billet is up to color and the flux is flowing, make sure the top few inches of the handle is glowing yellow at forge welding temp too. That insures the temp is constant throughout the whole stack.

Good luck! It seems to be addictive.
 
So you all know. We have 15N20 in .058, .065, .072, .078, .094 and 1/8"(.130). We will also be bringing in 5/32 1084(with the vanadium kicked up to .10) to round out the sizes I now stock.
 
Aldo Bruno said:
So you all know. We have 15N20 in .0s 58, .065, .072, .078, .094 and 1/8"(.130). We will also be bringing in 5/32 1084(with the vanadium kicked up to .10) to round out the sizes I now stock.
Click to expand...
You can always be counted on to fill the bill, Aldo

Thanks for the great service, Fred
 
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