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questions about steel in BM AFCK
- Thread starter Vet95LT1
- Start date
Last year, BM switched over to using 154CM in most of their knives from ATS-34. The AFCK design changed again this year going to an oval hole. So there are some transition AFCK with the round hole and 154CM and now the new line-up with the oval hole and the 154CM. Most of the discussion of the AFCK is with the older ATS34 models and most of the print material as well just because of the comparatively short time BM has been using 154CM.
Phil
Phil
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- Oct 7, 1998
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- 1,838
154CM is made by Crubible Particle Metallurgy. They have been making it for some time. It is identical in elemental composition to ATS-34. Both are crucible steels, not CPM steels (that is why the alloy in question is not called CPM 154).
Hitachi brought out ATS-34; it was cleaner than 154CM due to the electric furnaces that Hitachi used. Recently, however, Crucible has been using AOD (Argon Oxygen Decarburization) to purify their 154CM; this has made it cleaner than ATS-34.
A misconception sometimes encountered is that 154CM is double melted or VIM-VAR (Vacuum Induction Melted, Vacuum Arc Remelted) steel. It is not now, nor has it ever been VIM-VAR. An example of an alloy which is VIM-VAR is Timken Latrobe VIM-VAR BG 42.
Hope this helps. Walt
Hitachi brought out ATS-34; it was cleaner than 154CM due to the electric furnaces that Hitachi used. Recently, however, Crucible has been using AOD (Argon Oxygen Decarburization) to purify their 154CM; this has made it cleaner than ATS-34.
A misconception sometimes encountered is that 154CM is double melted or VIM-VAR (Vacuum Induction Melted, Vacuum Arc Remelted) steel. It is not now, nor has it ever been VIM-VAR. An example of an alloy which is VIM-VAR is Timken Latrobe VIM-VAR BG 42.
Hope this helps. Walt
thanks for the info - mine must be the transition model, it has the 154CM and the round hole - the main reason i bought it was because the new 1's had the oval hole, i had always wanted the AFCK so i got 1 at closeout price (89.95) and glad i did - fits my hand well, very happy w/it
vet
vet
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Walt, I keep having to catch you on this one: the company is named 'Crucible Steel' - the specific series of steels using the CPM process are 'Crucible Particle Metalurgy'.
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
--JB
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
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e_utopia; you are a niggling, nit picking poster. And you are wrong.
In fact, the Crucible Service Centers Division is a division of Crucible Materials Corporation.
Within the Crucible Service Centers Division is an entity known as the Crucible Specialty Metals Division; it is a facility of 1.1 million square feet, located in Syaracuse, NY, and is where the CPM series of alloys are actually produced. For information on this corporate entity, go HERE
Crucible Particle Metallurgy is the name of the process by which the CPM series of alloys is produced. It is also, colloquially, but incorrectly, used by some of us to refer to the producer of the aforementioned alloys. Sometimes, even just 'Crucible' is used. The reason for this is to avoid confusion in people who only know of the CPM designation, and can thus easily (if technically incorrectly) identify the manufacturer of the alloys.
Also, Crucible Metallurgy is sometimes used to refer to the maker of 154CM in a similar manner.
There is no entity known as 'Crucible Steel.'
Metallurgy has two 'l's in it.
I do look forward, e_utopia to further constructive criticism on your part; I am always interested in discovering the truth.
Clayton Hufford; the elemental composition of ATS-34 and 154CM does indeed differ; both in the data provided in charts, and in actual batches. However, the variation between different batches is such that the two steels may be considered elementally identical. All data in alloy charts are approximations.
Nimrod: mighty hunter. The difference between ATS-34 and 154CM was actually first published on KFC by Joe Talmadge; I cannot take credit for it. Here is the URL:
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000279.html
As always, corrections, comments and criticisms are welcomed.
Until the next time I can be of service, I remain, yr. obt. svt.
Walt Welch
[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 03-12-2001).]
In fact, the Crucible Service Centers Division is a division of Crucible Materials Corporation.
Within the Crucible Service Centers Division is an entity known as the Crucible Specialty Metals Division; it is a facility of 1.1 million square feet, located in Syaracuse, NY, and is where the CPM series of alloys are actually produced. For information on this corporate entity, go HERE
Crucible Particle Metallurgy is the name of the process by which the CPM series of alloys is produced. It is also, colloquially, but incorrectly, used by some of us to refer to the producer of the aforementioned alloys. Sometimes, even just 'Crucible' is used. The reason for this is to avoid confusion in people who only know of the CPM designation, and can thus easily (if technically incorrectly) identify the manufacturer of the alloys.
There is no entity known as 'Crucible Steel.'
Metallurgy has two 'l's in it.
I do look forward, e_utopia to further constructive criticism on your part; I am always interested in discovering the truth.
Clayton Hufford; the elemental composition of ATS-34 and 154CM does indeed differ; both in the data provided in charts, and in actual batches. However, the variation between different batches is such that the two steels may be considered elementally identical. All data in alloy charts are approximations.
Nimrod: mighty hunter. The difference between ATS-34 and 154CM was actually first published on KFC by Joe Talmadge; I cannot take credit for it. Here is the URL:
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000279.html
As always, corrections, comments and criticisms are welcomed.
Until the next time I can be of service, I remain, yr. obt. svt.
Walt Welch
[This message has been edited by Walt Welch (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Not meaning to nitpick. It's just that 154CM isn't a CPM steel. It's easy to imagine that being assumed, though, when the company is referred to as 'Crucible Particle Metallurgy.' As you, yourself, posted, there are already some misconceptions realted to this steel. When someone who obviously knows what he is talking about makes an incorrect reference, it is easy for that reference to be repeated. (so, you either need to try and avoid such misconceptions when you can, or make sure to talk in a way so that no one will believe you
)
Yeah, I realized that error about 'Crucible Steel' a few minutes after posting, and intended to remedy it this time through, but you beat me to it.
I got a new keyboard, and it has trouble with repeat letters, so the second 'l's disappeared. It'll be gone in a few days, as soon as I can get another to replace it.
--JB
P.S., read the following statement very carefully, and tell me what is wrong:
"154CM is made by Crubible Particle Metallurgy." I'll be sure to get that 'l' problem fixed ASAP, Walt
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
Yeah, I realized that error about 'Crucible Steel' a few minutes after posting, and intended to remedy it this time through, but you beat me to it.
I got a new keyboard, and it has trouble with repeat letters, so the second 'l's disappeared. It'll be gone in a few days, as soon as I can get another to replace it.
--JB
P.S., read the following statement very carefully, and tell me what is wrong:
"154CM is made by Crubible Particle Metallurgy." I'll be sure to get that 'l' problem fixed ASAP, Walt
------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
- Joined
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- 1,838
E_utopia; NICE JOB; I will have to remember that line, 'I got a new keyboard' next time I make a mistake!!
You implied that I stated, '154CM is made by Crubible Particle Metallurgy.' Well, I did, although I did spell 'Crucible' correctly.
(Perhaps you should get the 'c' on your keyboard fixed as well)
Two sentences later, however, I clarified my statement:
I do not see how much clearer I could have made that statement.
Now that we have all the nits picked, for the two posters besides e_utopia and me who are reading this (who may rightfully ignore all the material above this as near mindless bantering), what e_utopia was trying to emphasize is that the CPM process is a tremendous advance; it allows the inclusion of much higher amounts of alloying elements than would otherwise be possible.
Here is how they do it:
An example of the advantage this process provides is the concentration of vanadium which can be obtained in crucible (traditional) steel; it is about 2%. The M2 steel in your high speed drill bits has about 2% V in it. With the CPM process, concentrations of up to 15% have been obtained. Since vanadium carbides are REALLY hard, this is a good thing for edge holding.
Thus, it is important to realize that even though made by the same corporate entity that makes the CPM alloys, 154CM is a traditional crucible steel, and as such, has the same alloy concentration limits as do all such steels.
Hope this helps. As always, comments, criticisms and questions welcomed.
Good luck on your keyboard, e_utopia!
Walt
You implied that I stated, '154CM is made by Crubible Particle Metallurgy.' Well, I did, although I did spell 'Crucible' correctly.
(Perhaps you should get the 'c' on your keyboard fixed as well)
Two sentences later, however, I clarified my statement:
I do not see how much clearer I could have made that statement.
Now that we have all the nits picked, for the two posters besides e_utopia and me who are reading this (who may rightfully ignore all the material above this as near mindless bantering), what e_utopia was trying to emphasize is that the CPM process is a tremendous advance; it allows the inclusion of much higher amounts of alloying elements than would otherwise be possible.
Here is how they do it:
An example of the advantage this process provides is the concentration of vanadium which can be obtained in crucible (traditional) steel; it is about 2%. The M2 steel in your high speed drill bits has about 2% V in it. With the CPM process, concentrations of up to 15% have been obtained. Since vanadium carbides are REALLY hard, this is a good thing for edge holding.
Thus, it is important to realize that even though made by the same corporate entity that makes the CPM alloys, 154CM is a traditional crucible steel, and as such, has the same alloy concentration limits as do all such steels.
Hope this helps. As always, comments, criticisms and questions welcomed.
Good luck on your keyboard, e_utopia!
Walt
Velly interesting dishcushion! Not wanting to pick nits or nit picks but one question Walt:
Where in the heck is "Syaracuse, NY"? I spent 4 years in school in upstate NY near Utica & we had a neighboring town called Syracuse - could it be these are one & the same? Must be the same keyboard problem that E_Utopia was having! I hope its not contagious! Enjoyed the give & take and learned something in the process.
Have a nice day!
Bill
Where in the heck is "Syaracuse, NY"? I spent 4 years in school in upstate NY near Utica & we had a neighboring town called Syracuse - could it be these are one & the same? Must be the same keyboard problem that E_Utopia was having! I hope its not contagious! Enjoyed the give & take and learned something in the process.
Have a nice day!
Bill
- Joined
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Walt, Walt, Walt. Look at the first sentence of your post yesterday, at 1:36 PM.
--JB
P.S., the keyboard really is the problem. I do know how to spell 'metallurgy.' [I just had to go back and fix 'spell']
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e_utopia@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 03-12-2001).]
--JB
P.S., the keyboard really is the problem. I do know how to spell 'metallurgy.' [I just had to go back and fix 'spell']
------------------
e_utopia@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 03-12-2001).]
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I give up. You guys can pick nits better than I can. Where in the heck is New York, anyway, this Native Californian who has never been East of Iowa wants to know??
(any misspellings intentional)
Walt
(any misspellings intentional)
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You tell em!
W.A.
------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
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A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
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Certified steel snob!
Founding president and member number 1! Wana join?
W.A.
------------------
"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto
A few useful details on UK laws and some nice reviews!
http://members.aol.com/knivesuk/
Certified steel snob!
Founding president and member number 1! Wana join?
Gollnick
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Argon Oxygen Decarburization, why of course. Say no more. Once you've said Argon Oxygen Decarburization, well, you've said it all. Everyone knows about Argon Oxygen Decarburization... don't they?
And as for Vacuum Induction Melted, well, of course not. That would be silly. You wouldn't want that... nobody would.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds good. You could use this stuff at cocktail parties. Ah, yes, well I'm currently working on Argon Oxygen Decarburization in combination with Vacuum Induction Melting, .com and everything you know.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 03-14-2001).]
And as for Vacuum Induction Melted, well, of course not. That would be silly. You wouldn't want that... nobody would.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds good. You could use this stuff at cocktail parties. Ah, yes, well I'm currently working on Argon Oxygen Decarburization in combination with Vacuum Induction Melting, .com and everything you know.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
[This message has been edited by Gollnick (edited 03-14-2001).]