Questions for all knife makers

B . Buxton

B . Buxton

Joined
Jul 8, 2001
Messages
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I received a phone call last weekend from an individual inquiring about buying a knife. He was a first time custom knife buyer inquirer and we talked quite extensively about what he was wanting, and then he asked why should he buy one from me instead of one from a well known production company.

His question really caught me off guard and I honestly didn’t know what to say. He had become acquainted with seeing my work posted on Blade forums and said he was always quite impressed, but with all the discussions on the different forums about who’s knife was better, he was totally confused. He said the latest conversation about knife performances coming down to nothing but hard science had him wondering how backyard knife makers with only a few thousand dollars invested could even begin to compete with the knowledge, technology and production of a knife that the big companies produced, after all they’ve invested thousands and thousands of dollars and sought the knowledge of people that have taken their knowledge of metallurgy to extremes that I can‘t even imagine.

I again didn’t know what to say. All I could do was tell him how I worked the steel to produce my knives and what my knives had shown me in my own personal tests. Having limited resources with no high dollar technology equipment like those bigger companies have, I just had to rely on performance tests to show how well a knife cut, held an edge, edge and sideways pressure to determine if the knife had sufficient strength to give ample performance when used as a knife, and when the knife dulled how easy it was to regain its sharpness.

After close to an hour of conversation and a very pleasant discussion I must add. He finally concluded that he would give it more throught and let me know what he decided one way or the other. He thanked me for my time and really appreciated my honesty and sincerity. In closing he said, as an outsider looking in, he felt knife makers were their own worst enemies, to make the claims and accusations about each other that they make, only turns a great deal of the public away from their profession because of the negativity and confusion it raises.
At that moment I couldn’t agree with him more.

So here’s 3 questions I have.

What would you tell someone that asked “why should I buy your knife instead of someone else's?”

If performance does come down to only hard science, and by that it means, if every maker doesn’t heat treat in ways that produces the same end results according to science as we now know it, does that mean that everyone that produces knives with different end results according to science, are inferior?

Would he be smarter to buy a production knife where they have more then just performance testing, where they have scientific proof on what’s happening inside the steel?

He gave me food for throught, so what do you think? By the way, he was looking for a using knife not a art or collectors item.

Thanks,

Bill
 
Interesting post, and one that got me thinking. I'm just starting as a knifemaker, and haven't sold a thing yet, but here are my thoughts anyways.

- For me at least, a good reason to buy from a custom maker is the simple fact that it's custom made, for me, by a skilled craftsman. I'm a firm believer that true craftsmanship is almost gone in our society today and that its worth it to support people who still take pride in their work whenever I can afford to.

- While big companies can invest a lot of $$ into research, testing, and expensive equipment, that $$ has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is the customer. As a big company their sole goal is to get as many dollars from you as they can while spending as few dollars as possible. Very often the difference is in attention to detail.

That's just my quick $.02. Personally I also think that mass produced knives never seem to achieve the grace and simple elegance of a well made custom knife. But that's just my opinion.

-d
 
Those 3 questions have as many answers as there are makers and buyers but I will attempt to put in words my thoughts.

#1- I never put down other makers, most buyers are familar with basic elements that make up quality knife and if they don't and you help educate them, you may make a sell. I have found that eye appeal, feel and how accessible and approachable the maker is to them personnaly is the determining factors. I have helped other makers make a sell without them ever knowing I did.

#2- Heat treating is a science and it has been my experience that makers that are around for a while have put the effort into becoming as good as they possibly can with the steels they work with and take great pride in the outcome. They generally work with small batches of knives instead of mass produced blades and are very particular with each step. Customers will quickly let you know if you have honked up the heat treat...no news is better than bad news and reports of excellent performance is even better. My fear is that all the attention to the science has confused more buyers than it has helped in most cases. I am no Metalurgist or scientist, but have learned from others and trial and errored enough to be confident in what I personnaly produce. I think ther has been too much "this steel is better than that steel or "my forging is better than his stock removal" each quality steel and makers process has it's place and there are plenty of buyers out there for each kind any way.

#3- Here is my favorite question and the answer is what probably sells more knives for custom makers than any other. Most of the buyers that we sell to do not want a cookie cutter, just like every body elses production knife. People like and desire to have custom, personalized, unique knives, cars, motorcycles, boats etc. etc. etc. Some folks are better off buying a production knife, they will be happier and I will be happier for them if they do. I chuckle when folks tell me they can "buy one simular" at Wally World for $19.95...most of those folks could not tell the difference between a high performance steel than an average or poor one anyway.

I know...I know there are exceptions to all these things but this is my opinion. There are a number of makers who none of these questions apply to because they can sell more than they can make.

Bottom line is that it is the customers money and they should buy what pleases them for the reasons that please them.

I agree that makers who put down other makers to get a sell are headed down a bad path.
 
The first thing in buying a custom rather than production, is the need for the buyer to appreciate the fact that it's made by hand. In an ever more automated , mass produced world it's nice to be able to get something that a PERSON actually made.Second is that custom means the buyer can get exactly what he wants ,be that size,shape , material, decoration....In life in general you have to learn to separate the facts from the nonsense. The more informed the buyer is the better able he is to make a choice.He can spend time on this forum reading the comments and asking questions .He can find the myths and if a blademaker advertizes the myths he can go elsewhere.As far as metallurgy goes ,it's not all that overwhelming to learn enough metallurgy to heat treat the blade properly.Find out if the maker knows metallurgy or just hot air.
 
Stag and Steel says in #3 exactly how I feel about custom knives. Customers who aproach me want something that is unique. I think this is because knives are such a personal tool. Each person is unique and many want a unique knife. We are surrounded by one size fits all in just about everything, so its refreshing to turn to a custom knifemaker to have something made 'just for me'. As a knifemaker I am honored to fullfill this obligation for a customer, and in turn the customer then has a little piece of me riding with him on his belt. This can go further though, as sometimes a knife can help a person out of a bad situation, perhaps as a knifemaker I may have even saved a life in time of emergency and or danger.
 
Bill, I was going to write a detailed response, but saw Jim's excellent post, and mete's follow up, which I think covers most of the ground for me.

I would like to add one related item concerning steel choices and heat treatment. Many customers ask me variations of the questions posed; "If production company A uses 440A steel, why don't you?"; or, "Why doesn't company B use 5160 or O1 for their blades while you do?". At this point it becomes time for some serious education regarding markets, economies of scale, cost of production, time to market, etc. Production companies are generally bound by the hard rules of economics and business cycle, whereas the custom maker is not. The custom maker has the advantage of using steels that are not economically produced and heat treated on a production line. As mete notes, a custom blade is a hand made item with endless variations available to the buyer, including many, very high quality steels that are rarely available from a production company.

I have found that if one is patient, the intelligent, discerning customer can be educated in all facets of knife making and is then able to make an informed choice. In my experience, customers like the one with whom you spoke are usually the ones that will eventually buy a custom blade; mine or another maker's. They are trying to separate the truth from the B.S., and as he put it, in that area, we are often our own worst enemies.
 
Interesting question so I may sound like a stromper but I am in the lucky position that I only make a few and they always sell normally as orders to repeat customers. My answer is I make a knife that I like and if I don't sell it I am just as happy to keep it myself. I put a lot of care into my knives and I would not want to sell to someone who was going to use it as a chisel or crow bar but if it were used that way in an emergency it could take it.

I had better add:jerkit: before someone else does. I am sure someone will think that about my answer.
Stay happy
 
I had a conversation just last night on the phone with a long time knife maker regarding heat treating. He mentioned that many of those of us who forge are using what are known as simple steels. When it comes down to it, not all that different than the steel used by the Samauri sword forgers of the past. And those guys made blades that are to this very day, legendary!
They didn't use pyrometers to set the thermocouples on their heat treating ovens and then quench in high-tech quenching mediums and temper in computer controlled environments.
No, you don't have thousands and thousands of dollars invested in Research and Discovery, and you don't have high paid metallurgists on your payroll to determine sub-zero quenching techniques using designer steels.
But! You do have the capability, using known formulas, of creating a one-of-a-kind blade that your customer can hand down generation to generation and be proud of the fact that the knife he is using is the ONLY ONE OF ITS KIND IN THE WORLD!
We need to always face the fact that no one really NEEDS what we make and sell. They have to WANT it and be able to part with what little disposable income they have and give it to us for what we make.
Tell your customer he is buying something that represents pride and performance.
Each of our knives has a little bit of US in them.
He's not just buying a knife.
He is also buying everything else that comes along with it!
I could go on and on here, but most of my customers also get a new friend, whether they want one or not!
I have customers that email me and call me every month or so just to see how things are going!
Do you think Walmart is going to call your customer and ask him how his vacation went? How's the new baby? Happy Birthday!??
They get a lot more than just a new knife.
 
Bill,

It sounds to me like you may have an audacious customer that is over-thinking the whole thing. If he were really familiar with your work, and familiar with the world of custom knives, he would not have to even ask those questions of you, rather answered them himself, drawing conclusions from his own research. I will talk with a customer for a certain amount, but if they require too much coddling, it gets on my nerves. I feel like you, me, and many of the other makers here have proven ourselves as craftsmen and artists. How many customers have the gall to ask Ron Lake why they should buy his knife over a one made by Frank Centofante? ;)
 
There is no reason I can think of that a knowlegable smith with a few thousand dollars in equipment can't get the most (or very close to it) from the commonly used blade steels--especially carbon steels. ---that's not to say that they all do, but that's another story.
It seems to me someone's trying to use some high-flying jargon to impress the easily impressed. (i.e. if your doctor says you have 'sore toe' you wouldn't feel so good about paying his bill as when he says it in Latin.)
 
some people should buy a $20 knife and be done with it.
A hand crafted knife is more than a mass produced tool. It is craftsmanship or art or collectable or all three combined. It is pride of ownership.

i'd say mass production knife makers snipe at each other more than custom makers....so do car makers...soda pop guys and almost every one else in business. custom makers respect each other more than any other industry i've ever seen...

It is assumed that mass production produces superior steel vs the custom knifemakers. I wouldn't assume that at all. In fact, I'd assume the custom maker to have a superior product by virtue of the individual attention each blade gets.

this guy has some valid concerns for his money but i'm not sure he'd ever be happy buying an expensive custom... he doesn't understand the asthetic or 'soft' value of a custom knife beyond a cutting test....
 
Very interesting throughts and opinions. thank you for your replies.

The gentleman that called was very polite and didn't come off in any way insulting.He is new to the custom made knife world and was just trying to learn all he can before he lays down his hard earned money. I understood that perfectly. He mentioned that he had bought hand made articles before that didn't live up to expectations, and after reading some of the conversations posted on several forums he became more confused.
I told him I was no metallurgist, that to give scientific proof of what exactly goes on inside the steel was beyond my capabilities. I really don't figure I'll hear from him again but thats alright too. If it comes to the point that I have to give technical munbo jumbo on everything that takes place in my blades to sell them, then the profession will have went some place I never intended on going when I started and I'll bow out to the more educated. All I can do is say what my blades are capable of in my testing and people have to decide from there if it is something they want to pursue. I do understand his confusion though and I welcomed his concerns.

Thanks,

Bill
 
I have seen very little of this here (" he felt knife makers were their own worst enemies, to make the claims and accusations about each other that they make, only turns a great deal of the public away from their profession because of the negativity and confusion it raises.") He needs to get out a little more. I see a lot more collectors arguing on these forums than makers.:)

I would have told him to buy what he likes and if he really is interested in custom knives to do a bit of resurch outside of the forums. Go to a few shows, read some knife books / magazines and talk to a number of different makers. Now, I would not have been mean or short with this guy, I've spent many hours on the phone educating buyers and helping makers, not to mention all the emails.

I once had a guy say to me, he could buy a similar knife from maker X for less and asked why, I told him that my knives just cost more that Maker X's

This is an interesting thread Bill with some very good replys.

Edit to add. I have worked with a good number of new collectors and it's been a pleasure to work with most of them. I have also become good friends with many. It's up to us as makers to educate the knife buying public and sounds like Bill handled this one well.
 
If the potential customer had truly seen YOUR work, or the work of many other great makers here, there should have been no question about why he should buy from you as compared to WalMart! Have you ever seen anything resembling the beauty and or quality of your work on a shelf wrapped in plastic??Neither have I, and neither has he!
I always tell every customer or potential customer, "If all you want is something sharp to hack stuff up with, then you really are better off going to WalMart. What they do not carry is a piece of my soul and that is what you get when you buy from a custom maker."
Your work needs no justification. He should consider himself lucky to potentially own one of your creations.

Just my .02,
Matt Doyle
 
I pour my heart and soul into each and every one I make. With each one I create there is a piece of my life, a small slice of time that I will never recoup. This knife is all I have to show for it.

I make them one at a time, not in mass. This is a "one only". Not even I can ever make another exactly like it.

With each knife, there is a little bit of me...I put my name on it and I am quite proud to be able to make such a quality piece of cutlery.

Timex or Rolex, the decision is yours...

Craig
 
this is kinda like my fathers dealing with people in that he is a generial contractor, and does some of the best work you can find. he realy puts his whole heart into making everything as close to perfact as he can get it. but the problem is when some one wants a house and is think about one of thos homes what are what he calls cooke cutter homes, every one on the block has the same house with sight changes. most of the house is prefab and just slamed togather with no thought of how the home is going to look in 5 years, thay dont care. but my dads homes stay looking great years and years down the road even with a house full of kids. yes he is more expensive that the pre fab homes but your not buying a home for 5 years most of the time, your buying a home for life where you can bring up your family. One thing my dad drilled into me growing up was this one thing, "It not worth doing if you dont do it right".
 
Custom knife makers are where the innovation and creativity originate.
How many companies were involved in reviving pattern welded steels or wootz from the lost arts? None.
Not many forged factory knives out there, either...
How many companies take an unknown to knives steel and do the work to see what value it is to the knife community? Close to none.
New knife designs are almost exclusively thought up by a custom maker somewhere, not a knife designer in a cubicle...
As for the scientific side of it, knife companies do not develop heat-treating diagrams... The steel manufacturers do this, along with the custom makers...
This data is used by knife manufacturers, but very few manufacturers develop the methods used.
They may put a quality program in place to improve consistency by random lot inspection, but the custom maker does 100% quality inspection as routine.
 
I've been asked similar questions for a number of years (why should I buy a custom rather than a production?) The way I see it, it boils down to two distinctly different philosiphies.....

1. Production knife compainies are in business for ONE reason, that is to make money. The line of thinking generally goes something like:
What are the least expensive materials we can use, that are the easiest to machine/manipulate for our factory, that will provide us with a product of ACCEPTABLE quality, that the public would be willing to purchase? This is MY belief from a number of years listening to, and talking with individuals from production knife companies. I at one time was trying to work out a deal with a production company on one of my designs. At the time I was too young and stupid to realize that there had to be some give and take involved. The knife in question was of 52100, and the company did not want to produce the blade in that particular steel, siting that the material was too expensive, and too difficult/critical to work for a production setting. During every conversation the subject of cost before quality always came up, with the factory rep. trying to get me to accept a lower grade of steel because it was cheaper to obtain, and easier to integrate into a production line situation. Again, being young and not really understanding, I held fast to my belief that if my name was going to be associated with it, it needed to be the "right" steel, and I just flat wasn't going to budge on my demands. As it turned out, my attitude toward "compromise" cost me that factory deal, but the experience taught me a lot about the differences between a single Maker in his/her shop, and a production knife company. The name/logo that appears on a factory knife depicts the company. If a knife fails or breaks, most of them will simply send the customer out another knife (if they have a warranty on the product), and think nothing more about it.

#2: After having explained all of that, my belief concerning a "Custom" Knifemaker, or a single individual making knives is this... First off, most of us would like to make money at what we do, but most that endure are also strongly motivated by a shear love of the craft. (meaning most of us would continue to make knives even if we didn't earn any money)
A good reputation within our business is one of the hardest things to achieve, and one of the easiest things to loose. Every item leaving an individual's shop is bearing the mark of that maker. Whether that be a logo or an individual's name, it is a distinct marker of the individual, therefore, to my way of thinking, it is in the best interest of the Maker to ensure that EVERYTHING that leaves that shop MUST be the very best quality it can be, without concern for how much the steel cost, or how long it took, or how easy is was to produce the finished product.... With each an every item that leaves, your reputation is on the line. If something the individual has produced fails or breaks, there is an indelible mark left in that customer's mind, even if the situation is "made right" by the Maker. There's a huge difference when the total responsibility lies on a single individual, rather than several hundered "workers". At the end of the day the custom maker looks at what he/she has produced, and gets a huge feeling of satisfaction and pride about what they have achieved. In the factory, the accountant looks as the numbers, the number of units produced, and the bottom line of how profitable the day was.

I'm in no way trying to paint the production knife companies as evil or bad, just different than the individual, and necessarily so if the production company wishes to reamain a viable business. It's simply a necessary difference in philosophy.

The question of heat treating knowledge is like comparing apples and oranges. The factory chooses the steel for a blade based on how easily and/or "cost effectivley" it can be shaped, heat treated, and finished to provide an "acceptable quality" product. The lone Maker in his/her shop makes each knife "one at a time" (at least I do) and therefore has the incentive, and must take the time to ensure that the heat treatment is the very best it can be, testing each and every one (at least they should), where as the factory MIGHT be testing one out of every 100 or even 1000.
 
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