Questions for the more "mature" HI experts

[Glenn Jones]

Lately, I have fallen in love with long and thin khukuries. I have three that are very similar in many ways but also very different:
an older 20.5 inch early shop 2 sirupati (27.7 ounces), a 22 inch recently bought Sher kobra (26.3 ounces), and a recently bought 20 inch Bura sirupati (22.4 ounces).

The shop 2 sirupati and the Sher kobra have almost the same profile. So much so that the shop 2 sirupati fits comfortably and snugly in the kobra scabbard (the kobra's handle is a little longer and hence there isn't a great deal of difference in blade lengths). There are three main differences. One is that the shop 2 sirupati is much thicker along the spine (to be expected). The second is the shape of the cutting edge. The shop 2 sirupati has close to a convex edge, the kobra more of a sabre edge (ie. V shaped). The third is that the older shop 2 sirupati has a pointier, meaner looking end to the blade than any other khukuri I own (it looks scary). I am sure that if I placed a photograph of it on the forum, many people would think that the shop 2 sirupati was a present day kobra (except for the buttplate and engravings on the blade). In fact, there is a picture of it on the Cantina. It is one I bought from John Powell around the Easter period and John put a picture on the forum along with the other khukuries he was selling at that time.

In comparison to the other two, the recently bought Bura sirupati has a hollow ground, thinner edged blade that has a wider profile and is more like (relatively speaking) a stretched out world war II shaped blade. It is beautifully made, but then one expects that of something made by Bura. On looking back through the HI forums, it has the typical profile of recent 20 inch sirupatis. I have tried cutting two inch branches with it and it sliced through them happily.

When I have done a search back through the H.I. forum, there does seem to be a trend towards wider profiled (ie. bigger belly), less pointy, and thinner hollow ground blades in the recent models compared to earlier versions (I believe this is true of World War II style blades as well as the longer sirupatis). I personally like the sleeker profiled, pointier ended, and convex edged shop 2 sirupati the best of the three I own, but love them all. It looks tough and instills confidence.

My questions for HI forumites who have been around the Cantina for some years (hence more "mature" than the rest of us):

1. Are the differences I have noticed just accounted for by the normal variation that occurs in something that is uniquely hand crafted. Or, am I correct in noticing the changes in the shapes of same model khukuries over the years. Were the older HI models sleeker and pointier in appearance with a more convex edge than the same model newer versions (I think Yvsa has noted the convex edge change a few times before)?

2. I have no doubt that the present Khukuries are well made, but are their blades as tough as the older HI blades? Specifically, what will my convex edged Shop 2 sirupati be capable of doing that my Bura sirupati won't be able to do? With care and no twisting of the blade, is a very well made thin, hollow ground edge still a very strong edge for normal chopping - as strong as a convex edged blade?

 

[Yvsa]

Originally posted by Glenn Jones
My questions for HI forumites who have been around the Cantina for some years (hence more "mature" than the rest of us):

1. Are the differences I have noticed just accounted for by the normal variation that occurs in something that is uniquely hand crafted. Or, am I correct in noticing the changes in the shapes of same model khukuries over the years.

Glenn the first part of your statement is correct.

Were the older HI models sleeker and pointier in appearance with a more convex edge than the same model newer versions (I think Yvsa has noted the convex edge change a few times before)?

No. See above. The older ones ALL had convex edge bevels(for want of a better word) and edges

2. I have no doubt that the present Khukuries are well made, but are their blades as tough as the older HI blades?

Yes.

Specifically, what will my convex edged Shop 2 sirupati be capable of doing that my Bura sirupati won't be able to do?

Yes.

With care and no twisting of the blade, is a very well made thin, hollow ground edge still a very strong edge for normal chopping - as strong as a convex edged blade?

No.

 

[Glenn Jones]

Yvsa,

Thanks for your reply - if my memory is correct, I think you have been one of the advocates for a return to the convex edge - soooo, more questions.

Where did the trend away from convex edges come from? Why has it happened? Can it be reversed? Instead of requesting a new model of khukuri be made, can we put in a request for a present style khukuri but with a convex edge? I would be willing to pay more for such a khukuri.

 

[etp777]

I'm more of a fan of convex edges for choppers(which of course khukuris are) myself too. HOping to finish up a convex camp knife tomorrow, that I made convex so I could use it for bigger chopping/camp chores without worrying about it.

 

[MadMark]

I clicked on this because it said "mature", but I see it's a PG thread.

 

[Glenn Jones]

A slight correction to my first post - as happens when I start looking at a couple of my khukuries, I took all three out to clean up the yard by trimming up branches on trees (from 2 inches in diameter down to twigs) and my favourite just changed. The sirupatis were great, but the kobra was outstanding. It cut deep, had slightly increased reach for some of the higher branches, balanced beautifully, and was just so easy to control.

 

[Zal]

Originally posted by MadMark
I clicked on this because it said "mature", but I see it's a PG thread.

I believe the forum your looking for is Whine & Cheese.

Go west until you reach the Community area of Bladeforums, then turn south until you see the exit marked "Whine & Cheese." It's about as far south as any other forum gets on Blade Forums, but there are some very non-PG threads to be found there.

Enter at your own risk, and beware of the bastids.

 

[ddean]

Originally posted by Glenn Jones .......can we put in a request for a present style khukuri but with a convex edge? I would be willing to pay more for such a khukuri.

I believe someone explained that the concave edges are the result
of the factories change to electric grinders.
Probably a search in the archive to the earliest mentions of
concave edges would give a definite answer.

It would probably cost a LOT more to ask for a convex grind.
Although some of the kamis seem to be learning to get an edge grind
closer to flat / saber, and occassionally approaching convex.

A search of 'Bill Martino' originated posts mentioning 'convex'
or 'flat' might give an estimate of how often these appear, and by which kami.

 

[Bobby B]

Don't try this at home...

Are we talking just the edge here? If (as I thought) the blades were forged, what else is ground on them? A somewhat slack belt sander could put a convex edge on couldn't it???

 

[ddean]

Originally posted by Bobby B ......Are we talking just the edge here? If (as I thought) the blades were forged, what else is ground on them? A somewhat slack belt sander could put a convex edge on couldn't it

Whole blade is forged to shape.
The final sharp edge is ground on.
How much exactly I don't know.
[see note below]
Yvsa obtained an 'as forged' blade some time back and finished it himself.
He can tell us better.

As I recall reading here; this topic caused lots of concern, and hard discussion,
but the final decision was that the time/economics of this factory
required this compromise.

Belt sander would work great.
Easy for us....Sears, Walmart, and other sources.
I guess belts are too difficult and/or too expensive to obtain in rural Nepal.

I believe I also read that they use electric polishing (homemade? cloth wheels)

Likely if you searched the archive forum for 'Bill Martino' threads
that included 'bevel' or 'grind' or 'concave' or 'convex' (or 'polish')
you'd see some more details of this decision.


note below:
Reading about Traditional Japanese katanas,
I was surprised to read that Two people make a katana.
The 'Smith' shapes and hardens the blade.
The 'Polisher' reshapes (refines) the blade as it is flattened and literally polished.
The shape refining includes profile, and precise bevel planes and shapes.
The polishing includes differential polishing of the differential hardening zones along the edge.
This brings out the hamon.

 

[Yvsa]

Originally posted by Glenn Jones
Yvsa,

Thanks for your reply - if my memory is correct, I think you have been one of the advocates for a return to the convex edge - soooo, more questions.

Yes, I have. IMO the newer khuks with the flat or hollow ground edges aren't nearly the khuks the old ones with the proper convex edges were. The old ones edges started at the same place the new one's edge bevels start.
It wasn't a "flat grind" with a convex edge.

Where did the trend away from convex edges come from?

The hurry up that the electric motor grinders brought.

Why has it happened?

It's easier and faster. The kamis like any other humans are greedy and the more production they get the more money they make.

Can it be reversed?

It could if Bill were to encourage it enough and saying that the customers were unhappy with the new edges, but that ain't likely to happen since it seems to be Bill's take on it is that he doesn't have to replace "That" many.

Instead of requesting a new model of khukuri be made, can we put in a request for a present style khukuri but with a convex edge?

We shouldn't have to do such, but it's probably possible.

I would be willing to pay more for such a khukuri.

Again, we shouldn't have to. I hate to say it, but the Khukuri House Khukuri's still come with the proper convex edge because they haven't succumed to the modern electric grinder.

The "As forged blades" came with a pretty much "flat" edge. There aren't any "slack belt" grinders in Nepal.
A convex edge can be put on with an electric grinder, but it will take longer to shape and polish the convex edge than the hollow ground edge.
However, IMO, not "That" much longer.

I don't know what this "almost convex" edge that Bill talks about is. A knife either has or does not have a convex
edge.
It's not just the edge we're talking about as a convex edge can be put on a flat or sabre ground edge.
The Khukuri should have a completely developed convex edge starting at the same place the current edge bevels start. That's the only way to get the strength back into the edge as it should be.:grumpy:

 

[Daniel Koster]

As an "apprentice" to Yvsa's convex edge, let me add a few things:


Yvsa - I believe Bill calls it an "almost convex" because it is not fully convex. On those models, there is a definite bevel that has been "convexed" - just like newbies to belt-grinding who almost always (and unknowingly) put on convex edge when they grind and polish the final bevel. In fact, if you strop a knife - you are "convexing" the edge.

Those of you in the moose-knife passaround will be able to get a hands-on appreciation for a true convex edge, as I have removed (the best I could) any trace of a bevel and ground it straight to the edge. If you look at the earlier pictures I took of the knife - you'll see a bevel line. There is none now.

Basically - if you can see a bevel line, it's not fully convex.

I think the Kagas Katne ( ) still comes with a convex edge. Anybody ordered one recently?


Think of it this way (and you'll be convinced of the power of the convex edge):

A beveled edge is a "crooked line" in profile.
A convex edge is a continuous line in profile.

The convex edge is stronger just like an arch is stronger than a triangle.



[pausing for epiphanal moment...]






IMHO, the reason the convex edge was dropped is that it takes more work to make it, and on top of that it's harder for the Joe-user to sharpen. (easy to strop but hard to re-align/grind/etc.)


I'm in the process of writing a tutorial on how to put on a convex bevel - and in an easy way. Involves an orbital sander and lots of sandpaper.

Hopefully, this will be part of the Sharpening Video I'm trying to get made...

Dan


(apologies to Glenn for hijacking and sidetracking his thread)

 

[Glenn Jones]

Dan,

No apology needed. I am enjoying the thread and look forward to your tutorial and video.

 

[Rusty]

That about sums it up.

 

[Rusty]

Just remembered some time back Bill noted the kamis were astounded when they first saw sandpaper, as they'd never seen or heard of it before.

Also, like me and Yvsa, you will probably find some of the most elderly in years, and in longevity on the forum, tend to be the most immature at times. ( Something about the attitude of " If they're going to treat me like a senile old fool, I'll give them 'SENILE' like a fox! " )

Or maybe it's the medications we are on. ( Well, it's an excuse, and they might buy it! )

 

[Yvsa]

Originally posted by Rusty
Also, like me and Yvsa, you will probably find some of the most elderly in years, and in longevity on the forum, tend to be the most immature at times. ( Something about the attitude of " If they're going to treat me like a senile old fool, I'll give them 'SENILE' like a fox! " )

Or maybe it's the medications we are on. ( Well, it's an excuse, and they might buy it! )

Speaking of the medications....
I sure like the new one I'm on for pain!!!! Although it doesn't work quite as well at controlling the pain the new medicine has given me back a lot of my life that had disappeared for a couple of years.
And that makes the "hurt" worthwhile to me.
I credit the new medicine for helping to get me out of the fog I didn't know I was in as well as to giving me the energy to move around more.

Back to the topic...
The full convex edge also helps to prevent the khuks from sticking in the cut. The convex edge has it "all over" any other edge form!!!!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why has it happened?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's easier and faster. The kamis like any other humans are greedy and the more production they get the more money they make.

quote:
_________________________________________________________________________________
IMHO, the reason the convex edge was dropped is that it takes more work to make it,

Dan we said basically the same thing.

 

[ddean]

Am I recalling incorrectly

that some of the kamis objected to the change?

 

[Rusty]

I don't recall the kami's response at all. I think they were just awed not to have to do it by hand. Just one jackass's opinion, though.

 

[firkin]

I'm not "mature" by any relevant criteria, but....

It seems that most all of my kardas came with a grind tha was actually convex (sabre) or closer to convex than the khuks did. None of the kardas are really hollow-ground , except perhaps right at the plunge cut on some. Seems sorta back-asswards to have a steep thick edge on the karda and a thin unsupported edge on the khuk.

 

[Mr.BadExample]

I'm an idiot, I assumed they were full convex grinds. I always felt guilty when I had to sharpen them on stones to bring out the edge, rather than just stropping them. Now I don't feel so bad.