Questions on tang tapering and false edges.

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Vaunripped

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Nov 20, 2010
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I have a knife I'm working on that to me has great balance.... the problem is I only have it blanked out right now. From my first knife I saw how far the balance can move from cutting in the bevels and putting on the scales. How do I figure out how much I need to taper the tang to get the balance back were I want it? or is it more by feel than anything? How thin is too thin at the tip of the taper?

I'm planning on giving the same knife a false edge. Is it easier to do that before or after the main bevels?



Thanks in advance for any help.
 
I plan on using 1/4 or 3/8 micarta slabs from usaknifemaker and 1/4 brass rod for pins. Like I said the knife is only blanked out right now, I haven't drilled any holes or broken any shoulders yet. I thought I would ask before I started so there was less chance of a bad oops.

Thanks for any advice.
 
Heavy scales, and heavy pins. I'd say you can't go to thin on the taper. You want to go thin anyway. Thats what sells. I taper after HT. I do my false edges last. Thats why I don't do many. Too much risk. I'm hoping someone here says it should be done differently. I'd like to be able to have those done earlier so I can rest easier the rest of the way out.
 
I haven't done any tapered tangs yet, but I do a lot false (or real :cool: ) top edges. They are always the very first thing I do after I get the profile ground. by doing it 1st it gives me the most surface area to hold it flat, and I need all the help I can get!
I use a flat plate mounted at a fixed angle on my grinder, and grind them the same way you would do a scandi grind. I got tired of imperfect swedges, and ruining blades, they come out prefect every time now!
 
Vaunripped said:
How thin is too thin at the tip of the taper?




Thanks in advance for any help.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about too thin at first. Concentrate on keeping the taper even and flat and the start point near the guard, then go for thin as you like.
 
So for the weight I'm putting on w/ the micarta and brass I need to go really thin on the tang, should I take it down to like the width of a nickle or dime like I do for the edge before heat treat?

I'm using 5160 in .204, I know not the best starter steel but it was free. I have been doing most of my shaping before heat treat due to my lack of power tools. Granted I have only finished one knife and am working on 2 and 3 now so my experience is almost none existent.

Thanks again for any advice.
 
Like Ben, I find it much easier to grind any false edge or clip first.

For tangs, don't forget to drill any and all holes before tapering! If you don't, it will be a real pain to keep things square afterwards.

If this is your 2nd or 3rd knife, you may want to skip tapering the tang for now, there are plenty of other things to get "just right" before you start introducing more complex geometry. You can remove about the same amount of weight by simply drilling extra holes in the tang. (It doesn't look nearly as cool, though.)
 
My second and third are already heat treated and getting a "cryo treat" (read: I forgot them in my car last night) and are waiting to get all cleaned up, handled and sharpened.

Thanks a ton for the advice, I think I'll save the tang taper for later.

Thanks Ben, I have access to belt/disk sander now, could I use the disk sander with the table at the angle I want and get the same affect?
 
Bob Loveless in his book "How to make knives" has a good section on tapering tangs. Following his instructions in the book, I have done hundreds. I always do them before heat-treat.
 
I don't think the table on the disc sander goes to severe enough of an angle. I usually grind mine with the rest set to around 12-15 degrees.
 
I partially grind in secondary bevels, false edges, etc. I often do secondary edge bevels on swords as well as knives. I find it best to start and do most of the work with a grinder, but that is just to get a lot of the material off. Then, I switch to sen style scraper and/or files. First a bastard cut, then a smooth cut. All before heat treatment. Files will let you get the bevels nice and flat, and will let you get very crisp lines. It is not much more work on each blade, but I don't lose blades because the swedge or back edge came out wrong. Plus, files are fun when you use them for cleanup and finishing, and not for everything.

Tapering a tang is tricky. If you have a variable speed belt sander with a flat platen, then you are set. Make the knife so that the ricasso is the thickest part, with tapers towards point and heel of tang from the ricasso. This can be done roughly with grinder going horizontally across belt. Set these tapers first thing after profile is set (drill all holes before setting tapers, as mentioned earlier). OK, now, get rid of all extra tang material by hollow grinding the tang on whatever wheel you have (4" or larger). After it is hollowed, put the knife lengthwise on the platen and push very lightly at the top, and push very hard at the heel of the tang. This should cause the whole of the blade from ricasso to heel of tang to be pressed against the platen. You may want heavy gloves, a magnet to hold the knife, or a stick to push on the tang with. You will get more material removed from the heel end than the ricasso end. Alternate sides until you have a tapered and centered tang. You will want to periodically re-hollow the handle, as the hollow is ground away. The final product should be a tang with all holes drilled and a slight hollow in it. The entire area around this hollow, i.e., the outter edges of the tang, should be flat for about 1/16" to 1/8". It is only the outside that must fit flush against scales, and the hollow in the middle provides an area for epoxy to collect. I sometimes go back and drill some extra holes at this point if I think that it is needed for balance. Just beware taking too much material away in any area. I use heavy copper bolsters a lot, and I need to taper and skeletonize my tangs to make up.

This is essentially what Loveless suggested, only not as well-written or as detailed. There is a good vid set by S.R. Johnson about making a stock-reduction knife. It is great to see, even if you forge your blades, you can learn a lot from that man. An older vid with Bob Loveless is also out there, and it is also outstanding for all types of knife makers.

good luck,
Kevin
 
Thanks for the detailed info Kevin. My own belt sander is huge on my list of stuff I REALLY want.

I am constantly amazed at the detailed knowledge you all give to new guys like myself, seemingly pulled Vulcan's own notes.

Thanks again for all the great advice and info.
 
The only thin I can add is, if like me you aren't set up to do the hollow grind part, you can approximate the same effect by simply drilling extra holes. Similar to putting a hollow down the middle of the tang, it removes weight and gives room for epoxy to connect both scales.

One thing to consider... of course everyone wants a belt grinder, but if you don't already have one I would suggest a drill press even before a grinder. It doesn't need to be fancy, both of mine (Black&Decker and Ryobi) retailed for around $120 and have made hundreds of holes without a problem.
 
BenR.T. said:
I haven't done any tapered tangs yet, but I do a lot false (or real :cool: ) top edges. They are always the very first thing I do after I get the profile ground. by doing it 1st it gives me the most surface area to hold it flat, and I need all the help I can get!
I use a flat plate mounted at a fixed angle on my grinder, and grind them the same way you would do a scandi grind. I got tired of imperfect swedges, and ruining blades, they come out prefect every time now!
Click to expand...

Neat. This is what I meant. Thanks! I can do them on a scandi style jig, no problem.
 
I taper mine with the Loveless method to about 80% final thickness before HT. I leave the little bit extra on to give me some material to remove in the event of slight warpage. If the tang is already as thin as you want and it warps about the only thing you can do is try to re harden and correct during tempering....no fun at all.

If it is a knife that will have a guard, then I will lap the tang on a granite surface until the taper stops exactly at the guard and is dead flat.

Anybody know how to grind them on a surface grinder?
 
I saw a demo during a GA Guild demonstration where a tang was tapered using standoffs. He also showed how to taper them. Same method as the Loveless method but he did it after HT to avoid warp. I don't taper enough to have noticed which I thought was better. I tend to avoid warp as much as possible and switched after the demo.
 
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