Quick question from me, the excessively moral woodworker :)

Gorog

Gorog

Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
515
Is it morally acceptable, or better yet, ENVIRONMENTALLY RESPONSIBLE, to let people collect dead, fallen branches from Great Basin Bristlecone Pines, the oldest non clonal life forms on the planet, or is that the greatest sin since double dipping in the President of the United States's personal chips and dip? Honestly, to me, what's dead is dead, I don't know about you all, that's why I ask your opinions. Sure, it would be better for the environment if the branches were left to decompose and fortify the barren wastes that the trees occupy, but I would not be a stickler about it and deny travelers from around the world coming special to see the pines, the chance to pick up a piece that naturally fell, and bring it home in carryon. I ask because I witnessed an online 'cool EXPLOSION' when someone asked if they could sell bristlecone pine 'lumber' around the forum in question. The person stated that it was freely dropped by the tree, it was purely a person being slightly kleptomaniacal and keeping some pieces of gnarled that would otherwise go to 'waste'. I also ask because I found a vendor that deals in this type of wood. Would I be public enemy number one if I got me some bristlecone pine that fell naturally, or am I 'safe' from suffering the same fate as that person, being scorned on the internet? Or is the truth in the middle ground? You all know my opinion, but I value yours as well. Peace. Let me know what you all think about this matter. I, again, think what is dead, is dead.
By the way, before I go, I have GREAT respect for Bristlecone's (Not that anyone questioned this, I just wanted to say I love Bristlecones :) ), I think they are gnarly and beautiful to the extreme, and I love 'em. I would be ridiculously steamed at anyone who would chop down something that saw the Pyramids rise, just like I would lose my head if a poacher killed a gorilla or chimp in front of me (whoo, just imagining that makes me feel like Yellowstone, just READY TO BLOW:eek: ) Anyway, I hope you all had a great day today. Peace.
David
Oh, one more thing. I have a vague suspicion about this being...inappropriate or something. It could EASILY be my paranoia, but just in case, Mod's feel free to shut this baby down if I offend you or anyone else. If I do offend anyone, forgive me, I did not set out to offend anyone.
 
The answers are often found in your heart rather than in an opinion poll.

That said, a reality check with those you respect can be of value also.
 
Very deep, as always, Howard. I try not to do opinion polls myself, but it seemed like the right thing to do before getting some bristlecone pine and sharing it with you all. I doubt I would get blown out of the water by anyone here (maybe a visitor, but not the Cantina regulars), if I showed off a piece of Bristlecone that fell naturally, so, maybe I already knew the answer. Either way, I said it, and I can't really erase it from existence entirely, although I can edit my thread, or even close it down, if you want me to. Let me know, dude, either way. Peace.
David
 
What would concern me is at what level it is being harvested. Generally, yes it would be better in such a barren environment to leave all biomass on the ground. But a small level of individual harvesting is not likely to significantly effect the forest. The second question I would investigate though is the conservation status of the forests. For instance, while I would argue against cutting down live trees that are over 1000 years old, if the forest is healthy I would have no qualms about cutting down a live tree that is 50 years old. Of course, given the barren nature of the landscape, even this may be too much. I think a little research about the sources of the wood may shed light on this.
 
I don't know. Reminds me of the buying and selling of ivory. Is it OK if it comes from elephants that died naturally? When money can be made from it, how can people be sure of the source?

I read about some scientist who was taking core samples from a bristlecone pine tree to determine its age. The special drill bit got stuck in the tree, and he decided to cut down the tree to retrieve the drill bit. After killing the tree, he found out that it was something like 4,000 years old.

The guy ended up dying prematurely himself after he was struck by lightning (I think it was some years later).

(True story from a book called "The Tree", I don't have more details as the book is on loan to someone.)
 
The tree was named Prometheus according to Wiki, 4,8XX years old.

Ivory is fine to sell, what's wrong is poaching for it.
 
IMO-It would be in keeping with the principles of good stewardship to use dead wood should you choose.
 
Yeah, I totally agree with you all. Moderation is integral to what could very well be the only achievable grail of industry, sustainability. If you are overdoing something, someone, or something else will suffer for it, just the way it goes. It's kind of hard to tell from the sellers pictures whether or not they are standing around a tree that fell naturally, or one they cut down illegally, or are using a tree that fell naturally as a cover for an illegal tree poaching organization.... I don't know, but, the same could be said of many ambiguous looking companies, but, in my experience, they turn out alright. I'll let you guys know what happens next. Peace.
David
 
When in doubt, err on the side of not trusting the moral instincts of humanity.
 
If your own moral code allows you to obtain a piece of the wood in question, I would certainly have no moral objection to looking at a photo of it.:)
 
Neither would I :) . Shipping is killer on the item in question, but, I'm probably going to go through with it, even though Kismet makes a VERY convincing, and usually TRUE, argument (I hope my decision does not offend you, Kismet. And I like your knives, they are very nice looking.) The dude says it is found wood, and short of traveling back in time to see the exact moment when this wood was found, I'll NEVER know a satisfiable truth to the question: did they kill a majestic patriarch of the forest, or did they simply scavenge up a fallen member of the Bristlecone specie.... Sometimes, you'll never beyond spoken word, you know? So, I guess, I am going to get it, mostly because I am DYING to hold a piece of Bristlecone in my hands, but also because I have no REAL reason to distrust this person other than a VERY vague suspicion based on ZERO scientific evidence. Of course, if it is ever brought to my attention that there is even a shred of evidence that these dudes killed a practically sacred piece of New Mexico/California/Nevada for profit, I would flip out. But I doubt it, I really do. So, for now, the decision is yes, I will obtain some bristlecone pine, and hope that the vague suspicion remains unfulfilled. Peace.
David
 
When doing weapons practice, my favorite striking target is dead trees. They're dead.

John
 
after i reported in on the icebreaker i had been PCS'd to, one of the other ossifers told me stories about the last patrol they'd made to antarctica. they'd carried a bunch of scientists who wanted to study a rare protected seal species. seems there were only 5 left, so they wanted to tag them and put radio collars on them. they found the 5 seals, sedated them to put on the collars. 3 of them died from reactions to the sedation, leaving two males. their study concluded that the species would soon be extinct. sometimes the best intentions have unexpected consequences. i personally thought they should have been aware that animal sedation is a tricky and sometimes fatal business.

as an aside, one of my first patrols was to carry a bunch of scientists to the arctic to do some seismic studies. we trailed a pair of very heavy duty cables astern, the ends being about 10 feet apart. the scientists had a huge bank of heavy capacitors they charged, then almost instantly discharged thru those cables, it produced an unholy bang for their seismometers. they did this bang about every 15 minutes. if you were on watch, 4 hrs on and 8 hours off, and spent your daytime hours on collateral duties and training, your sleep was precious, and having the equivalent of a hand grenade going off near your head every 15 minutes 24/7 was not appreciated.

in other words we did not like scientists very much. on a susequent trip we ferried a mini-sub along with some more scientists who wanted to study the mating habits of walrus. turned out after many attempts that the water was too murky to see anything. at least that was funny and didn't kill anything (or keep us awake) tho the head scientist was always grumbling in the wardroom about his failed trip. he didn't play cribbage very well & the XO usually took him to the cleaners playing poker.

did i mention we didn't like scientists much?

i now return you to our regularly scheduled program.

regarding the wood, i once bought a few beautifully carved netsuke in japan once, they were ivory, antique and a few hundred years old. and relatively expensive. the ellyfants they came from were long dead. didn't stop US customs from confiscating them tho. more directly, the US govt. also recently raided a well known guitar makers premises and arrested them, confiscated and destroyed a whole lot of expensive guitars that had a protected species wood in them, even tho the guitar makers had bought the wood from a legit source, they could not prove that every piece was legal as some of the wood was decades old, probably before the species was on the list.

caveat emptor.
 
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I get your point, believe me, I do. As a matter of fact, I have changed my mind again, and have decided against it. As much as I desire a piece of bristlecone pine in my hands, I need to understand that you can't get everything you want the second you want it, and it looks better on a living tree anyway. Just because this world has turned into a world of near instant gratification, does not mean that it is a good thing. My yoga teacher read a section from a book that said something along the lines of 'Accepting yourself unconditionally is the greatest gift you can give yourself, greater than material gain can ever be, greater than anything we know of.' and that makes quite a bit of sense. I used to think that 'Love' was the answer, but it is not, I think. I think that acceptance, tolerance, understanding, and moderation, is. There's too many of us though, too many disparate personalities out there who disagree, or would even be driven to violence and killing, just to 'prove' that I am wrong. Which is no proof at all.
So, the thing to take away from this, is, that I am, someday in my lifetime, going to visit the Great Basin Bristlecone Pine's, I am going to see them. And if I visit a shop around there in that distant future that can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they harvested dead and down trees that are no longer endangered, or something like that, if it is as legit as it get's, I will gladly pay the sum to acquire a branch and fashion a walking stick out of it. It would mean a lot to me. But not everything. Not everything.
Peace.
Thanks for the advice, I take it gladly, Kronckew.
David
 
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