quick question on heat treating with a kiln and pyrometer (no digital controller)

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Dec 1, 2010
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I have a kiln and pyrometer rated to 2000 degrees f, would it be safe for the kiln to heat treat stainless steels in it? (ones that are supposed to be heated in the 1900-2000 range before quench) also since i do not have a fancy digital controller (just a pyrometer to tell me where i am) would being within 10-15 degrees plus or minus the target temp be super bad for the heat treat? Any stainless steels that would be ok with this range of accuracy?

Oh and after the blade is quenched how long can you wait before tempering? does it need to be right away?

lastly where is a good place to buy alum plates for plate quenching?
 
Clockwork,

Most of these questions can be answered by reading the stickies and researching other posts on the site. This is likely why you have not received a reply. The "what steel should I use?" question gets asked too often.... :( The experienced guys get tired of responding to it.

This is the near blind leading the blind, I have not yet played with stainless, but here is what I know from my reading and limited experience with carbon heat treat. I too am getting ready to use stainless, so here goes.

I would be very reluctant to use that pyrometer to heat treat stainless. Maybe someone with experience will chime in. You will be working right at its maximum. As you pointed out, most stainless requires temps in the 1900 to 1950 range. One small overshoot in your manual temp control and you risk overheating the thermocouple, especially with the long soak times required. An overshoot would probably ruin the TC and/or it may give false readings that you would be unaware of. $50 would get you a PID controller from eBay and a 2300 degree thermocouple from Auberins. You may even be able to use the PID to control your kiln. Holding within 10 to 15 manually seems difficult to me but I am using propane.

FYI, 10 to 15 degrees of variance is fine. Even the best ovens and forges vary by that much. There are always hot and cool spots that will vary that much even if the temp at the thermo remains constant. You need to go with high temp salts to get better control. That said we may get a reply contesting these statements.


Steel choice is up to you. 440c is the old standby and the one with the most heat treat knowledge in these forums. 154cm, and the CPM 30/35 series would also be good. Depends on your use. A kitchen knife would be better in 154cm or 440c since they are more stain resistant (with less edge retention?). I plan on using AEB-L for my first round of stainless chef knives and CPM 35sv for hunters/EDC's. The heat treats on all these steals are similar, but not the same. Pick one, research the heat treat and get experience with that before moving on to others.

Tempering should happen immediately after quench on any steal. It is possible for a blade to crack while it sits on the bench overnight after heat treat. Although I assume air hardening stainless steels are more forgiving than oil/water quenched steels. Either way, quenching stresses need to be removed as soon as possible so temper asap. For SS, if you are using cryo you want it in cryo as soon as possible. I do not remember if the temper should occur before the first cryo quench or between cryo 1 & 2. I do know that if you wait a few days, you've missed the window where cryo does much good. Ignore the last 3 sentences if you are not planning a cryo quench. My research shows cryo is not required but helps to get the most out of the steel. IE maximized hardness and better edge retention. Not sure yet if I will cryo my first rounds of stainless......

Looks like you are in Chicago, you should have lots of local metal suppliers for alum plate. Call a machine shop if you can't find a supplier who will talk to a hobbiest. If that fails, onlinemetals.com takes small orders and will have the plate in stock. That is where I got mine. Twas costly but I got tired of looking for scrap material.

Barry
 
I will add that just because the pyrometer goes to 2000 doesn't mean the oven will hit that temp. My car speedometer goes to 120 MPH.


It depends on your oven if it will work or not. If it is a jewelry burnout oven, it won't work for stainless. If it is an actual knifemakers oven, then it will work to some degree.

Burnout ovens will hit and hold 1800F, and will take forever to get much above that. It is unlikely you will have the ability to hit stainless temps. Also, at those temps, the coils will burn out soon. They are made to run in the 1200-1600 range for years without trouble, but not higher. They work OK for carbon steel HT, but won't do for stainless for many reasons ( top end, ramping, length of time between temps, etc.)

If you have an older analog control knife oven, then it will work for the simpler stainless steels. Ramp will be a bit of a problem. I would use steels that HT in the 1850-1900 range. Put the packet with the knife in the oven at 1200F and then raise the temp to the target while watching the needle. It will take some time, and you will have to turn it up or down once it gets there to get it to hold. +/-15 degrees won't kill the HT for most simpler stainless steels. You should be fine with 440C, A2, D2, and maybe CPM-154.
 
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The kiln i have is a skutt firebox 8 if that helps but it should be ok for heat treating in that range then? (its advertized as being a knife heat treating and glass heat treating oven among other things) Its got a manual hi med low dial and ive used it for 1095 with decent results, haven't pushed the blades to fail (only made maybe 8 or so high carbon knives into my career, but making a batch of 10 slipjoints out of 440c so wasn't sure if that would murder my lil kiln. Perfectly fine doing high carbon stuff as its in the 12-16 range.

Ive been looking into getting a pid controller but those ive seen run like 300-400, would that 50 dollar one work on any kiln? I just want to have a stupidly accurate kiln one of these day, we can all dream.
 
also i just feel like mentioning this but i would like to start making a knife a week or month (depending on how school is going) so ill post more up here of what ive done
 
That will probably reach the temps, but it is really a pottery/enamel/glass kiln, and not a knife kiln. I know that the sellers list knives as one of the things that you can do with one, but they probably don't make knives :)

The 8X8 chamber is not big enough for all but smaller blades.
The foil packets for stainless would be an added problem. Try and keep the blade tip as far from the coils as possible, as these don't have rate settings. I would be a bit leery of telling anyone to do stainless HT in one.
Carbon steel has a short soak time, and can take varying temps pretty well. Stainless has to make stops along the way and needs close temp holds for half an hour of more. 15-20 degrees can make a big change in stainless HT....but not much at all in carbon.

You could convert it to PID control for about $100. The sticky on PID control has the schematics and info on making a controller for a toaster oven. This would work the same. In a super simplified explanation - the PID controls an SSR, which turns the power on and off to the kiln. You just wire a socket to the SSR that matches the kiln cord, and plug the kiln in. No modifications needed to the kiln beyond inserting the TC.

One added safety note. IIRC, that type kiln does not have a lid controlled interlock. So, when you open it, the coils stay energized. If you bump a coil while removing a blade or foil packet, you could get a nasty shock. It is best to shut the power off when removing the blades.
 
You would actually need a PID and 1 or 2 SSRs. for 110 1 is fine I recommend 2 for 220. A new thermocouple would not be a bad idea while you are at it. http://www.auberins.com/ will sell you a good straight PID for $37 or one that will do ramp soak :thumbup: for $78. A 40 amp SSR if $19, I recommend a 40 over a 25. Most ovens run less than 20 amps, but a little heavy duty is good. A high temp type K thermocouple with ceramic protectors, a mounting block and wire to connect it to the pid is $27. So you can get the basic parts for a 220 control for just over $100 up grade to ramp soak for another $40. Find a metal box add some wire a couple toggle switches, time and you have a Pid control with digital read out. Good diagrams avalible on this site as well as some good tips in the stickies. Jim
 
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