Quick update on my experience with waterstones

H

HoB

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May 12, 2004
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Quick update on the sharpening stones. I played with the Shapton 5000 for several hours last night and decided, that I really DON'T LIKE this stone even though it has a very solid reputation. Too hard, too little feel and it tends to glaze. It is not particular fast cutting and the finish is not particularly high for a 5000 thousand grit.

The Nonparaille blue stone (2500) in comparison cuts when flushed often MUCH faster and the slurry (when you let it build up) leaves a finish that is at least as fine if not finer that of the Shapton. For me, the blue stone really has only worked on a trailing stroke (because the stone is so incredibly soft), but with trailing strokes I far prefer the performance of the nonparaille blue stone over that of the Shapton stone using trailing or pushing strokes (on the Shapton). Actually, the comparison last night really made me appreciate how good the nonpareille blue stone really is, if you use it right (not to mention that it is cheap in comparison).

In the end I think you would be better of with a ceramic stone like the Spyderco stones instead of the Shapton 5000. The Shapton 5000 is so hard and glazes enough (every 20 strokes or so, I had to run it over a diamond stone, I could not rub the metal of, with water), that you don't get the benefits of a waterstone (cutting speed, feel, no need to clean it frequently) and still have the drawbacks (wear, the Shapton wears very slowly for a waterstone, but a ceramic stone doesn't wear at all; fragility)

The Shapton 1000 I liked quite a bit. Cuts well, doesn’t glaze, good feel, and very low wear. In my opinion a very solid performer. On the other hand, I can't really say that it works better than the Bester stones (which I am rather fond of) and they are quite a bit less expensive.
 
Agreed, the Shapton pro 5,000 is a bit like sharpening on a hunk of glass and has no real "feel". The Shapton 2,000 is more like the 1,000 and cuts fast. It leaves a smooth finish (just starting to turn mirror-like, only takes a couple of strokes on the 5k to clarifiy it). I don't mind the 5k so much... it is the 8k that doesn't do it for me.

Also, what did you sharpen? While the Shapton pro's do leave a nice finish on stainless steels (many stones leave a dark or cloudy haze on stainless but Shaptons and Naniwas leave a clean bright finish), they are not particularly good at cutting it (those who have both, say the Norton stones cut stainless much better while the Shapton's excel at carbon blades).

You should try a natural aoto... they have their flaws but sound considerably harder than the reconstituted stones (while still considered a soft-medium stone, I can't dig my fingernail into mine, and, while it will gouge just a little if I slip, I have no trouble with both forward or trailing strokes).

Finally picked up one of those green Naniwa 10k... Gaaah! Talk about two ends of the spectrum! That stone is soft (only stone I have that I can carve with a fingernail)! Makes a good compliment to my glass-hard Shapton 15k (which I could swear cuts faster than the 8k) and seems just the thing for polishing the sides of blades and sharpening things with wide bevels. Now, if I can just find a happy medium half way between the two ^-^
 
I used the Shapton 5000 on the relatively new CPM 154 stainless steel. That is quite interesting, what you say, I think I am going to try the natural Aoto. Where did you buy yours? The non-paraille blue is actually quite a bit softer than Naniwa 10k....how is that for soft? :)
 
Japan Woodworker, but I think Hidatool has them too. Try the 5k on a carbon blade and see if you still have the same impression of it (don't think any of them have much of a "feel", but they seem to work pretty well on some things).
 
Is this a gumming effect of the Cr or an issue with carbides? What about high carbide tool steels like D2 or M2?

Do the high number Shaptons actually break down, I have used 4000 waterstones (king) and they readily form a slurry, do the Shaptons?

Yazuha, have you used really fine ceramics (UF from Sharpmaker), how do they compare to the very high grit waterstones?

Does anyone know why traditional Japanese sharpening often changes the angles of the honing process?

I saw an article awhile back which had the blade start off rough honing on a 45 to the stone, but end with it almost 90 on the finer stones.

Is this a way to slightly increase the effective bevel angle while maintaining a smooth blade to hone height?

-Cliff
 
I'd tend to agree. I think the Spyderco ceramic bench stones don't really get the respect they deserve from the water stone crowd. No water no mess really stay flat they are great for touchups and maintaining an edge. They don't have the hipnotic feel that water stones do but they are very good stones. I'm glad I can have both :)
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Is this a gumming effect of the Cr or an issue with carbides? What about high carbide tool steels like D2 or M2?
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Don't think it is the carbides... probably more of a gumming effect that keeps them from getting as good a bite. Have no problems with M2, I took my BM 910HS up to 15k at a rediculously low angle of 7 degrees per side (just to see how low I could go with it) and turned it into an absolute razor, and have gotten glass smooth edges on my Queen D2 whittler (grain size in that is so huge that I have to use about 15 degrees per side to keep the carbides from falling out of the edge in use).

Do the high number Shaptons actually break down, I have used 4000 waterstones (king) and they readily form a slurry, do the Shaptons?
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No, they don't form a slurry at all... all you get is the black swarf in the water, and some steels (stainless like BG-42) spall off bits of the burr (once I had a 2" long hunk of burr drop off like a piece of wire) that can get between the blade and stone and make the blade chatter or prevent good contact, so it is a good idea to rinse them off often. I think the stones that form a slurry are better at grinding the burr to dust so that it can't interfere while the Shaptons seem to be better with steels that are not prone to burr formation (M2 for example)

Yazuha, have you used really fine ceramics (UF from Sharpmaker), how do they compare to the very high grit waterstones?
Click to expand...

No, but like hard Arkansas stones, I've heard them compared to a 4k to 6k waterstone. From what I remember, waterstones can get a lot finer than crock sticks, but it has been quite a long time since I've used a crock stick sharpener. Thought about trying one of these http://www.chippingaway.com/WoodCarving/SharpeningTools/CeramicSharpeningStones.htm as the fine is finer than they Spyderco ceramic.

Does anyone know why traditional Japanese sharpening often changes the angles of the honing process?

I saw an article awhile back which had the blade start off rough honing on a 45 to the stone, but end with it almost 90 on the finer stones.
Click to expand...

If you are talking sword polishing, they start off with the blade 90 degrees to the stone on the arato, then at a small angle for the binsu, at about 25 degrees for the keisei and along the length of the blade for the nagura (which is used with a rocking motion rather than a scraping motion). With the scratch marks from different stones running at different angles it is easy to see when you have completely eliminated all scratches from the previous stone (you can't move on until you elimiate all traces of the scratches from the previous stone). You can do a similar thing with regular knives on artificial stones so that might be what you are talking about.
 
I do the same thing sharpeing knives. I think if you vary the angle of the edge with respect to the direction of travel it is more efficient in removing the scratches of the previous step. Just like sanding it is more efficient if you go perpendicular over the "furrows" of the previous sanding step. But maybe that is just my imagination.

I find you don't HAVE to remove the scatches from the previous step, but it creates a different type of edge, on that is a bit more toothy. You can for example use a fairly rough grit like 220 and skip the medium range and go directly to the finish stones 4000-15k and you get an edge where essentially the teeth are still the same size that you created with 220 grit but they are now polished. Gives the edge more bite but less polish. Absolutely the wrong thing to do if you want to get a razor type push cutter or a woodworking edge, but if you want to cut rope or a ripe tomato you can probably get some performance out of it.
 
yuzuha said:
Don't think it is the carbides... probably more of a gumming effect that keeps them from getting as good a bite.
Click to expand...

Have you worked with Beta-Ti or Talonite/Stellite?
... and some steels (stainless like BG-42) spall off bits of the burr
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That is interesting, I have seen that, but usually either in really heavy chopping blades or really low end stainless and junk knives.


With the scratch marks from different stones running at different angles it is easy to see when you have completely eliminated all scratches from the previous stone ...
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That makes sense.

HoB said:
You can for example use a fairly rough grit like 220 and skip the medium range and go directly to the finish stones 4000-15k and you get an edge where essentially the teeth are still the same size that you created with 220 grit but they are now polished.
Click to expand...

I think there are some interesting questions here for example what is the initial sharpness and edge lifetime of a tooth pattern producted by one uniform grade, say 600 DMT vs a high low pattern like you described, or a dual edge pattern, coarse on one side and fine on the other.

Assuming you pick the grade so the initial sharpness is the same (all cut 3/8" hemp on a draw with the same force for the first cut), which one is cutting with the least force after 100 slices, and which one makes the biggest improvement with a light aligning, and which method causes the most rapid wear of the blade.

-Cliff
 
True, but I leave that test up to you, Cliff, that is waaaaaay too much work for me :D . Personally, I like the highly polished edge anyways, were I work my way from medium to fine to ultrafine.

What I described above I discovered while I was playing around and just wanted to see what would happen if you skipped a couple of steps. The first time I noticed more by accident that the edge was different, when I reprofiled a couple of badly abused kitchen knives for my father on a 220 DMT stone and then spend only very little time with the grays and concentrated mainly on the whites (Sharpmaker, I was traveling and brought only the DMT x-coarse and the Sharpmaker with me). The edges felt different from the those that I produced on the knives that I didn't had to repofile with the DMT stone. Since the knives were all the same series, I wasn't quite sure what was going on, but it turned out that I simply hadn't removed the scratch pattern that was left by the DMT stone with the grays. So while both edges were polished to the same degree by the whites, the ones that I had reprofiled with the DMT and only deburred with the grays had a much larger "teeth" structure left. Additional 20-30 strokes on the grays succeeded by the whites produced the same edge as those had that I didn't had to reprofile, because now I had cleaned up the scratch pattern left by the DMT stone.
 
There are a number of makers who run knives that way, highly coarse then buffed/polished. You get some interesting performance, they can be both very strong in push cutting and aggression. However one of the drawbacks is that the first time you go to sharpen them you now have to work on a x-coarse primary edge grind and the micro-bevel is really thick because all the large teeth have broken off.

Now if you power sharpen, who cares, but for guys freehanding it, and worse yet, if you crock stick the edge, you can be left with a horrible impression of the steel. It is things like this that lead me to belive that people often get impressions like D2 can't get sharp because trying to sharpen such a blunted edge on a slow cutting stone or small pair of crocks sticks takes *forever*.

About the main reason I prefer a consistent micro-bevel just just ease of sharpening, when it wears I can reset it in about 10 seconds and just need one small hone. I can take a fine/x-fine dmt and keep pretty much any of the knives near optimal with an insignificant amount of sharpening time and either one of those finishes will suit most materials decently well.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, if you could have one coarse diamond bench stone for reprofiling type work to go along with your sharpmaker, which grit would it be?
 
I am not Cliff, but my vote would go to the x-coarse or coarse. Doesn't really matter which one. For the DMT stones those are 220 and 320 grit. Both work well with the Sharpmaker. The 220 requires a bit more work with the gray but cuts faster, the 320 is a tad slower but requires less work with grays. Take your pick.
 
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