Quick Update

D

Dave Fulton

Joined
Feb 11, 1999
Messages
568
Several of you had asked that I post updates so here we go.

As you may recall, I had to have surgery this past June to re-attach a tendon that was severed in live blade training.

It's been almost 9 weeks since the surgery and therapy has been tough. My therapist's eval is that the tendon appears to be attached and healing well, but it is being held down by scar tissue and she thinks I need more surgery to remove the scare tissue & release the tendons. She said I should wait 4 months after the initial surgery before having the scar tissue removed, which would mean having surgery again the end of October. Then, more PT after. I will see the surgeon later today to see what he thinks.

An up shoot of all of this is that it has made me do a lot of thinking and re-evaluate some things, including live blade training. I realize that training with live blades pushes you to a higher level, but this injury has really had a negative impact on my daily life (at work and home) and I don't know if it was worth it. I will still do carenza with a live blade, but I don't know about the rest of it. I'm also looking to replace some of my knives, including my daily carry because I now feel that their ergonomics are less than adequate.

All I will say about live blade training is be very, very, very careful people. I wouldn't want any of you to go through this any more than I'd want to go through it again myself.

Later.

Dave





[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 08-25-2000).]
 
Dave..I feel for you..I hope you can recover most ofthe use of your hand.Mary still cannot use her finger properly. the knife cut her tendon and the surgery attached it ( 10 weeks with a pin though it sticking out the top of her finger) but its stll not really regained its function..
Thats why I originally made Resin training knives with real grind lines and being identical to real commercial and custom knives..
I didn't want a repeat of what had happened to me and others to happen again..
Thats why I designed a function trainer drone that is identical to my real knife..Thats why I pushed SPYDERCO to make functional trainers..So that we get the rush of steel without the cutting.
Yes, I know it limits the final reality of training but I cannot equate training NOW with training for WAR and I cannot affored to see students and friends injured.
I even make us all wear lexan goggles..Eyes cannot be replaced..
Again I know this limits reality but safety MUST prevail..
I wish you the best..
Heal quickly...
Thank you for the honesty in your posting!

 
Wow, this is exactly why I do not want to do live blade training.

I have a friend who wants to do it but here is a perfect example of the the possible results.

Dave, I wish you quick healing.

------------------
http://www.fullcontacthi.com
"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread"
 
Like I posted before, one slip...you're dead. People come back and said they skydive and whatnot, and while that might hold true to a degree...hey! If you want to play, you might have to pay and as long as they accept that, go to it Captain!

I do agree with JRF and others that you should use live steel when doing carrenza and drawing, etc., although I use both trainers and live steel for that.

I hope you get better too Dave. PT is a must, but you can over-do that as well, Godspeed.
 
Dave, glad you're doing okay. Heal well.
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Stuart, nothing wrong with not being a blade person. There are plenty of warrior cultures that used war hammers, maces, and non bladed weapons to decimate people. Even the Southern Muslims had a war club, I just held one in my hand this past week. Very Polynesian looking and well a not very intimidating design. But it can equal the power of a Louisville Slugger.

Conversely, I respect the Dog Bros, FCSH and the folks who go at sticks for realism. I probably couldn't do what you do.

In the past I've said I train with live blades, solo and with my trainer. For fun, look at the inside of your left arm/check hand. Imagine a 1" scar near your thumb and a small puncture scar near the edge of the hand. Now imagine 2 thin cut scars on the forearm below. That is what my hand looks like right now. Every scar come from an edge or a point and each was from me, I drew my own blood.

I could tell you about how many times I've almost messed up with blades and that it would be an insurance nightmare. But my real point is that this is pretty much a mental issue.

I'm not really in it for the rush, nor am I brave. I'm in it for practical skill and mental practice, basically trying to get my stuff together. There is nothing wrong with being careful or going slow. I'm not saying be reckless but practice in the true spirit of the training (for you HACA folks)
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Also, I train with the steel for familiarity and feel for a technique. Modern made spears and swords don't always have the weight of the originals. Part of FMA training is to play with all weapons, know their characteristics and adjust. Movement is the same sure, but not exactly the same. You get a respect for everything when you touch a real weapon.

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 08-26-2000).]
 
Hope the second surgery will be a success Dave. Having to get multiple surgeries to correct a problem can be a real pain *rubs the back of his left ear* but if it works it'll be worth it.

------------------
Simon Yu

"I look at it this way. If things get much worse I'll be too dead to care."
 
Dave,

I hope everything goes OK. I have a cut tendon in my pinkie finger from training with a knife in the reverse grip. The knife didn't have a guard, and I did a thrust into wood. The knife stopped but my hand didn't. I knew it was a bad cut(actually, my pinkie and ring finger was cut, but the ring finger was superficial), but didn't realize that I cut my tendon. I applied first aid, eventually stopped the bleeding, and kept the cut closed with those small adhesive strips. When it was healed, I tried to move my finger, but the last joint didn't work. I never got surgery. Now when I get a serious cut, I go to the ER(and wait for 4 hours, but that's another story). It doesn't really affect my training, but sometimes the area hurts after a lot of power training with sticks on tires.

Kelvin


[This message has been edited by K Williams (edited 08-27-2000).]
 
Some advice to Dave--

Think of getting a second opinion, on what has been happening to your hand so far, and what may be further necessary. In these complicated things, it is always good to do this.

For instance, another surgeon might do things better. You may have confidence in your surgeon, but it is not easy to know actually how good or skilled he is. Just like in martial arts, a bit of skill can make all the difference. And there are good surgeons and bad surgeons.

This is your hand you are talking abt, don't f--k around with it, no need to be polite to your surgeon, get another opinion.

IMHO, if someone has an operation, and after that, he is told he needs another operation, he should start to get careful. It may not be that the surgeon was not good enough, it's just a difficult thing. But the sign of a good surgeon is that no second operation is needed.

I would at least give some thought to this.

Wishing you all the very best, SYK
 
Well, I saw the surgeon on Friday afternoon.

He agreed it appears that the tendon is scarred down and surgery may be necessary. However, he wants me to keep working hard with PT in the hope that PT will free the tendon so we don't need to open it back up. He said he typically doesn't like to go in to remove scar tissue until around 6 months after the initial surgery. I go back to see him in 6 weeks and we'll re-evaluate things then. That's it for now.

Thank you to everyone for your well wishes and advice.

Dave.

P.S. My therapist also warned me to be cautious of having more surgery too soon, and has offered to give me a referal (for a second opinion) if I wanted one.
 
Dave,
Sorry to hear abt your injury. Is the therapist (or anyone) doing agressive cross fiber massage on your finger? I have some experince in rehab & MT and have found this helpfull in getting things "unstuck".
Good luck!
Rich
 
Rich G,

My therapist has been doing "scar massage" and has me doing it on my own, but I'm not sure if it's the same thing that you're talking about. Can you describe the "agressive cross fiber massage" you're talking about?

TIA.

Dave.
 
Dave,
It is most likely quite similar. It is you finger, correct? I scaned your post and didn't find the area of injury, guess I just assumed
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. Cross fiber uses deep technique at a right angle to the muscle being worked, as well as deep slow strokes along the involved muscle. I have had good results using hot mineral salt water imersion(sp) folowed by the aformentoned massage folowed with long static hold stretching finishing with a cold pack to keep inflamatation down. I have used this on my self after a partial cutting of two tendons in my right thumb. There was(and still is) lots of scar tissue as the injury involved thick glass and took a hundred or so stitches to close. I have almost full range of motion and very good functional ability. It did take the better part of two years to get it back though. I have used the same technique(hot pack no salt imersion) with patients when I worked for Docs. How often are you doing/getting massage? how deep do you/they go? Go as deep as you can stand, use prudence when right on top of the knitted area of tendon.
Peace,
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich G (edited 08-28-2000).]
 
Rich G,

I asked my therapist about the massage last night and I'm receiving a different type. I'm receiving "Scar Massage" which uses a circular motion rather than across the muscle fiber as you described (she showed me how to do the Cross Fiber/Friction method). She said the circular massage is the normal protocol because it's more effective at remodelling the scar tissue that's developing. I do self massage a couple times a day and my therapist does it 3x's a week. The injury itself is on the right index finger, zone 2, proximal (not by much though) to the PIP joint. The blade severed the Flexor Digitorum Profundus tendon and a pulley. It's amazing how much "lingo" you pick up if you listen
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For all the non-medicos out there, the best way to describe it is take a knife ... you guys do have knives on you, right
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... and hold it in hammer grip. Now slide the knife until the blade touches the index finger (please be careful) and that's where I got cut. I severed the tendon that bends the tip of the index finger. The "pulley" holds the tendon close to the finger while allowing the tendon to move as you bend or straighten the finger (picture a fishing rod and how the rod bends as you are fighting a fish ... the eyelets that the fishing line runs through would be analogous to the pulleys ... the fishing line = tendon & the rod's shaft = the finger "bone").

Kelvin,

To the best of my knowledge, once the injury is more than a week old the chances of successful tendon repair decrease drastically. I do not know what if anything they could do after 8 years, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

Student,

I haven't given up on therapy. It's still possible that I won't need surgery.

Thanks everyone.

Dave
 
Dave, good to hear you again, hope everything works out. In stickfighting a few weeks ago, I foot smashed a guy on the foot, and felt really bad because he dropped in pain and couldn't stand on his foot the rest of the day. Then he was limping around all week so I didn't know if it was broken or not because he didn't want to go to the doctors. Then the week after, knife sparring with Edge 2 training knives, I hit him on a nerve in the back of his hand that shot pain up through his entire arm for the rest of the night. Right on the point of contact, I heard the snap and "felt bad" because I knew it was going to hurt. This past Sunday, we had our worst injury yet. Ironically, we were goin empty hand and not weapons. Anyway, it was more so of a strategy behind the kick and not the technique or power, etc that got him. IMO, he is a much better boxer than I am, but the strategy worked and the kick caught him by suprise. At the last minute, he put his hand down and my leg ran straight into his thumb. We thought his thumb had broken, because we could see the bone through the skin on the inside of his thumb. Luckily, 4 hours later, we found out that the bone was dislocated, but not broken. They relocated it, and stitched up his thumb. But when I saw my friend bent over, looking at his thumb with the bone sticking through the skin, I don't enjoy that.

How many of those that do full contact sparring, do you feel remorse after?

------------------
Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
http://www.fullcontacthi.com
 
I always feel bad when I get in a good shot that obviously hurts.
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Fortunately, I don't have to feel remorse very often because I'm usually on the receiving end
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In fact, I'm thinking about writing a book about full-contact stick sparring. I'm thinking of calling it "The Tao of Pain, Life Lessons from Full Contact Stick Fighting".
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Sometimes I really quack myself up!
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Dave.
 
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