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Randall at West Point Museum.
- Thread starter Sufler
- Start date
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- Jan 15, 2001
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I read one time this was a Springfield made Randall. Can anyone confirm that? John
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- Feb 11, 2003
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- 379
John,
It's an early Orlando blade for sure.
Best,
It's an early Orlando blade for sure.
Best,
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- Jan 15, 2001
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Ron,
Thanks. John
Thanks. John
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- Feb 11, 2003
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You're welcome, John. Sorry I didn't have any time yesterday to elaborate on "why" it's an Orlando knife and not a Springfield knife. The pic doesn't give you much to go on in terms of some of the differences. For example, all Springfield Randalls had an extended nut at the butt with a through hole for the lanyard. Here's a photo of one:
The very earliest Orlando knives circa late '42 / early '43 had no means of securing a lanyard like the one in the photo below:
Very shortly thereafter, Bo incorporated a brass or steel wrist thong link and subsequently dropped that in favor of increasing the length of the aluminum butt cap and drilling a through hole. Unfortunately, the West Point Museum photo does not give us a "butt shot". However, you can see the large flanged butt cap of the Springfield knife and notice it's absence in the West Point photo. Another "tell" between a Springfield knife and an Orlando knife is the sheath: Virtually all Springfield sheaths were made by a company called Mosser, and there are significant differences between a Mosser sheath and a sheath by Moore, Heiser or Southern Saddlery that housed Orlando knives.
The other big giveaway is the that Gavin's knife has fingergrooves in the leather handle. No Springfield knife had these. Given the butt configuration, the fingergrooves and the Moore-like sheath construction, Gavin's fighter is one of Bo's earliest from late 1942 (Well before Heiser started supplying sheaths to Bo in April of '43). Here's a photo of some very early Orlando fighters from late '42 through mid '43. This will give you an idea of the shape of Gavin's blade which would have been very Zacharias-like:
Best
The very earliest Orlando knives circa late '42 / early '43 had no means of securing a lanyard like the one in the photo below:
Very shortly thereafter, Bo incorporated a brass or steel wrist thong link and subsequently dropped that in favor of increasing the length of the aluminum butt cap and drilling a through hole. Unfortunately, the West Point Museum photo does not give us a "butt shot". However, you can see the large flanged butt cap of the Springfield knife and notice it's absence in the West Point photo. Another "tell" between a Springfield knife and an Orlando knife is the sheath: Virtually all Springfield sheaths were made by a company called Mosser, and there are significant differences between a Mosser sheath and a sheath by Moore, Heiser or Southern Saddlery that housed Orlando knives.
The other big giveaway is the that Gavin's knife has fingergrooves in the leather handle. No Springfield knife had these. Given the butt configuration, the fingergrooves and the Moore-like sheath construction, Gavin's fighter is one of Bo's earliest from late 1942 (Well before Heiser started supplying sheaths to Bo in April of '43). Here's a photo of some very early Orlando fighters from late '42 through mid '43. This will give you an idea of the shape of Gavin's blade which would have been very Zacharias-like:
Best
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Ron,
Thanks again, very informative. I have always kept my eye open for a Springfield Randall, because of the name of the man who reportedly had them made, is the same as my name but no relationship to me. I knew of one behind a bar in Shirley, MA, but the owner had carried it in WWII and would not sell it, or at least not for the money i could afford to offer him. I left Ft Devens in 1985 and have no idea what happened to that Springfield Randall.
John
Thanks again, very informative. I have always kept my eye open for a Springfield Randall, because of the name of the man who reportedly had them made, is the same as my name but no relationship to me. I knew of one behind a bar in Shirley, MA, but the owner had carried it in WWII and would not sell it, or at least not for the money i could afford to offer him. I left Ft Devens in 1985 and have no idea what happened to that Springfield Randall.
John
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- Feb 11, 2003
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- 379
John,
Despite the fact that the number of Orlando knives built during WWII exceeded the number of Springfield knives by about a 3:1 ratio (Roughly 4,400 mostly fighters vs. 1,400 Springfields), the number of Springfields that come up for sale vs. Orlando knives seem to be in reverse of that order! Hunt attempts to explain this on page 183 of his first book by saying the majority of Springfields were marketed through large and small department stores while the Orlando knives were built to order. This resulted in a number Springfields still sitting on shelves when the war ended that were never lost to attrition. This also accounts for the fact that the "typical condition" of a Springfield is better than that of an Orlando knife when they do come up. Bottom line is that you should have a better shot at a decent condition Springfield at a reasonable price than you would a WWII Orlando fighter. Good luck!
Best
Despite the fact that the number of Orlando knives built during WWII exceeded the number of Springfield knives by about a 3:1 ratio (Roughly 4,400 mostly fighters vs. 1,400 Springfields), the number of Springfields that come up for sale vs. Orlando knives seem to be in reverse of that order! Hunt attempts to explain this on page 183 of his first book by saying the majority of Springfields were marketed through large and small department stores while the Orlando knives were built to order. This resulted in a number Springfields still sitting on shelves when the war ended that were never lost to attrition. This also accounts for the fact that the "typical condition" of a Springfield is better than that of an Orlando knife when they do come up. Bottom line is that you should have a better shot at a decent condition Springfield at a reasonable price than you would a WWII Orlando fighter. Good luck!
Best
Last edited:
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- Feb 11, 2003
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- 379
I think I've seen a photo of that one quite a while ago, Bart. I'd love to see it again.
Thanks,
Thanks,