Rank these steels in order to chipping resistance: S30V, D2, ATS-34, VG-10, AUS8

[cotdt]

Based on the knives that you have used, rank these steels in order to chipping resistance: S30V, D2, ATS-34, VG-10, AUS8.

Including other steels that you have experience with would be interesting as well.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

the only blade i can remember actually chipping was an s90v military. no idea how i ended up with that chip. but it was easily repaired.

i have broken the tip off a blade made of ats34, and had it reprofiled.

keep in mind that different makers prepare their steels differently, even when the same base metal is being used.

 

[knarfeng]

Chipping resistance to what?
Cutting cardboard?
Chopping wood?

 

[cotdt]

the only blade i can remember actually chipping was an s90v military. no idea how i ended up with that chip. but it was easily repaired.

i have broken the tip off a blade made of ats34, and had it reprofiled.

keep in mind that different makers prepare their steels differently, even when the same base metal is being used.

Broken tips count as chipping, too. On a tough blade you can bend the tip to an extreme angle and it would snap back like nothing happened.

I too have had chipping issues with ATS-34/154CM, although I did have one heat-treated by Paul Bos and it did not have an chipping issues. I'm not concerned about the heat-treat, but rather how these steels perform in actual production knives.

 

[Kaizen1]

Broken tips count as chipping, too. On a tough blade you can bend the tip to an extreme angle and it would snap back like nothing happened.

Although HT and steel choice may play large roles on whether a blade chips or not, we can't forget grind. Here's my XM-18 compared to my Snody Shank:

Secondly, I'm not sure I understand your statement about "bending a tip to an extreme angle" and having the blade unaffected. In the picture above, if I stabbed the Shank tip into a tree and bent it to an "extreme angle", I couldn't blame the steel or the maker. Can you elaborate on that? It seems like a huge exaggeration. If you have it, could you provide a video showing what you're saying?

 

[nozh2002]

Based on the knives that you have used, rank these steels in order to chipping resistance: S30V, D2, ATS-34, VG-10, AUS8.

Including other steels that you have experience with would be interesting as well.

This is incorrect question. It depends on steel hardness, heat treatment, manufacturer, cryogenic treatment etc. Any overhardened steel will cheep.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[cotdt]

This is incorrect question. It depends on steel hardness, heat treatment, manufacturer, cryogenic treatment etc. Any overhardened steel will cheep.

Thanks, Vassili.

I'm not asking how the blades perform under ideal heat treatment and ideal steel hardness relative to blade profile. I'm asking how these steels perform in actual production knives, especially by companies like Benchmade, Spyderco, Buck, Kershaw, CRKT, etc.

I think it's a perfectly valid question, because I'm only asking for anecdotal information, nothing scientific that would be mired on controversy.

 

[orthogonal1]

Well, I have had chipping in S30V, D2, and ATS-34 blades due to the acute edge angles I put on the respective knives. You can throw in M2, A2, SGPS, O1, 154cm, and a plethora of others.

VG-10 and AUS8 knives seemed to get floppy edges, as they rolled over at the edge angles I had them at. Throw in "440" stainless in this group.

I note that as I use a knife I keep making the edges more acute until I see chipping or rolling in use. Then I increase the agle a bit when I resharpen.

 

[cotdt]

Well, I have had chipping in S30V, D2, and ATS-34 blades due to the acute edge angles I put on the respective knives. You can throw in M2, A2, SGPS, O1, 154cm, and a plethora of others.

VG-10 and AUS8 knives seemed to get floppy edges, as they rolled over at the edge angles I had them at. Throw in "440" stainless in this group.

I note that as I use a knife I keep making the edges more acute until I see chipping or rolling in use. Then I increase the agle a bit when I resharpen.

Wow, I'm surprised that M2/A2/O1 also chips? Are they really chips or little dents (like after hitting something hard)?

The carbon steels that I have used neither chips nor rolls (lateral), but of course they can be dented (vertical). The edges just flex against a hard object, and then flex back. No chipping or rolling. If the steel is too soft it rolls, too hard it's brittle.

How would you compare S30V to D2 in regards to chipping? Most manufacterers run S30V to 58 and D2 to 60, add to that the claim that S30V is as tough as A2, so I'm assuming that S30V is relatively chip-resistant?

 

[Vinnie the Nose]

The only chipping I had was a tip breaking off a D2 griptilian. About 2mm. Of course it was also dropped onto cement.

 

[orthogonal1]

Wow, I'm surprised that M2/A2/O1 also chips? Are they really chips or little dents (like after hitting something hard)?

The carbon steels that I have used neither chips nor rolls (lateral), but of course they can be dented (vertical). The edges just flex against a hard object, and then flex back. No chipping or rolling. If the steel is too soft it rolls, too hard it's brittle.

How would you compare S30V to D2 in regards to chipping? Most manufacterers run S30V to 58 and D2 to 60, add to that the claim that S30V is as tough as A2, so I'm assuming that S30V is relatively chip-resistant?

The M2 chipped. I looked at the damage under 30X glass. It has happened with both my Mini-Ritter and a user 710Hs. The edge angles were pretty acute, pretty close to simply laying the blade flat on the stones when sharpening. Thick plastic banding did the 710 chipping and I was cutting open a lot of heavy cardboard boxes when I noticed the Mini-Ritter had chipping. Maybe I hit a stapple, but I don't recall such.

Benchmade ran its M2 less than full hard and I was mildly suprised. I figured I could still go more acute. No big deal as they are both cutting machines.

I don't know why everybody keeps saying most makers run S30V at 58HRc. Benchmade indicates 58-60HRc. Why assume the lowest?

I've come to consider most S30V and D2 to be about equal in terms of edges, but my experience is limited.

Common D2 is not to the Dozier standard and not a premium steel as far as I'm concerned.

My most acute S30V knife is a Military and is less than 10 degrees - lay blade flat on stone, lift to just clear the back. I don't use this knife for anything but light to medium cutting tasks - I'm leary of liner-locks these days. This knife did chip once when new - I got it when Spyderco first started using S30V in this model. Suprised me a bit, but chipping issues were reported more often back then. Might have hit a stone as I used the knife for all kinds of nonsense back then. Since then, and at more acute angles, it has held up. My other S30V Military has never chipped.

Had chipping with my early S30V Skirmish for a bit, but I think that was the old "edge grinding" issue. Once I reprofiled it, the chipping stopped despite the more acute angle.

My most acute D2 knife is a "custom" fixed blade by some maker whose displayed craftsmanship is poor, to put it favorably. Said poor craftsmanship was the imputus to take this knife down to a very acute edge, again less than 10 degrees, to fix the uneven grind. I do think he heat treated the knife well, though, considering what I've done with it. This blade chipped out when cutting out, breaking up, and scrapping sooty deposits from a stack - so metal to metal contact was made, as well as there being stones and glass present.

A Benchmade 806 rolled a bit due to stone contact - much nicer than chipping. This 806 knife also burrs more than my other user 806, a pre-pro version. Vagaries of mass production.

As for A2, my Severtech seems to be living up to the "promises" of this steel.

But, another inexpensive "custom" fixed blade of A2 chips at about 15 degrees. Same with an O1 not so inexpensive "custom" - the edge was brittle from the get-go. There is a lesson there.

I measure/estimate angles using a set of triangles for drafting. These have angles from 5 to 90 degrees, in 5 degree increments. Old stuff.

As previously indicated, I usually keep going to a more acute edge angle in each sharpening until I get chipping or rolling in use. The trouble is, I rotate too much to get there that often with the "premium steels". I like my M2 alot, so these knives see more use.

Edit: I should of added that I seem to notice chipping before I notice edge rolling, unless the edge rolling is pronounced. Am I the only one who is like this?

 

[wally@ferguson]

Discounting steel batch and heat treating, I've seen alot of chipping on straight razors and very little on axes. It's the angle and how you use it.

 

[cotdt]

The M2 chipped. I looked at the damage under 30X glass. It has happened with both my Mini-Ritter and a user 710Hs. The edge angles were pretty acute, pretty close to simply laying the blade flat on the stones when sharpening. Thick plastic banding did the 710 chipping and I was cutting open a lot of heavy cardboard boxes when I noticed the Mini-Ritter had chipping. Maybe I hit a stapple, but I don't recall such.

Benchmade ran its M2 less than full hard and I was mildly suprised. I figured I could still go more acute. No big deal as they are both cutting machines.

I don't know why everybody keeps saying most makers run S30V at 58HRc. Benchmade indicates 58-60HRc. Why assume the lowest?

I've come to consider most S30V and D2 to be about equal in terms of edges, but my experience is limited.

Common D2 is not to the Dozier standard and not a premium steel as far as I'm concerned.

My most acute S30V knife is a Military and is less than 10 degrees - lay blade flat on stone, lift to just clear the back. I don't use this knife for anything but light to medium cutting tasks - I'm leary of liner-locks these days. This knife did chip once when new - I got it when Spyderco first started using S30V in this model. Suprised me a bit, but chipping issues were reported more often back then. Might have hit a stone as I used the knife for all kinds of nonsense back then. Since then, and at more acute angles, it has held up. My other S30V Military has never chipped.

Had chipping with my early S30V Skirmish for a bit, but I think that was the old "edge grinding" issue. Once I reprofiled it, the chipping stopped despite the more acute angle.

My most acute D2 knife is a "custom" fixed blade by some maker whose displayed craftsmanship is poor, to put it favorably. Said poor craftsmanship was the imputus to take this knife down to a very acute edge, again less than 10 degrees, to fix the uneven grind. I do think he heat treated the knife well, though, considering what I've done with it. This blade chipped out when cutting out, breaking up, and scrapping sooty deposits from a stack - so metal to metal contact was made, as well as there being stones and glass present.

A Benchmade 806 rolled a bit due to stone contact - much nicer than chipping. This 806 knife also burrs more than my other user 806, a pre-pro version. Vagaries of mass production.

As for A2, my Severtech seems to be living up to the "promises" of this steel.

But, another inexpensive "custom" fixed blade of A2 chips at about 15 degrees. Same with an O1 not so inexpensive "custom" - the edge was brittle from the get-go. There is a lesson there.

I measure/estimate angles using a set of triangles for drafting. These have angles from 5 to 90 degrees, in 5 degree increments. Old stuff.

As previously indicated, I usually keep going to a more acute edge angle in each sharpening until I get chipping or rolling in use. The trouble is, I rotate too much to get there that often with the "premium steels". I like my M2 alot, so these knives see more use.

Edit: I should of added that I seem to notice chipping before I notice edge rolling, unless the edge rolling is pronounced. Am I the only one who is like this?

Great post! This is very useful info. When noting angles, do you mean inclusive or per side? I want to try 18° inclusive with the S30V. If it chips, instead of adding a microbevel though, I'm thinking, why not put the chips to good use and just use it as a free serrated blade?

 

[orthogonal1]

Great post! This is very useful info. When noting angles, do you mean inclusive or per side? I want to try 18° inclusive with the S30V. If it chips, instead of adding a microbevel though, I'm thinking, why not put the chips to good use and just use it as a free serrated blade?

Angle's are per side. I just do approximate, by eye in comparison to my triangles. I really try not to measure angles too much, just letting the performance determine what is will be. If a 45 degree angle will perform as you want, than that is good enough.

18 degrees should be a useable angle with S30V. Another forum member mentioned 6 degrees per side was useable, with the caveat that such an angle wasn't for heavy use.

Chips don't make good "serrations" in my experience, even the really small ones, as they hang-up and grab too much. I have used a blade that was crumbling, the edge amounting to nothing but a chipped edge, for rope - but that was because it was all I had (that knife is currently off the coast of Nags Head - where it belongs).