Ranking the Steel Ranking Articles

Larrin

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jan 17, 2004
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The most meta of any of the articles I have written: an analysis of other articles. I took the top 5 articles that provided ratings of various knife steels and I rated their ratings. I also critiqued their descriptions of steel properties that preceded the ratings. Then I ranked the rankings using criteria that was just as objective as the articles themselves.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/03/ranking-the-steel-ranking-articles/
 
I like your article. Are the chemical specs for knife steels typically the maximum allowable amount unless you're given a range?
 
I like your article. Are the chemical specs for knife steels typically the maximum allowable amount unless you're given a range?
Usually it’s the target or midpoint unless marked max. Usually.
 
I appreciate all your hard work.
Really though . . . for me and IMO . . . the only thing we need to know can be summed up in two characters : "M4"
It is just a matter of the companies now to stop fooling around and provide the option of the steel in their knife models.

Sounds stupid and simplistic but, IMO . . . and experience . . ., true.

Oh sure there are those who really like 55 or 56 Rc stainless and enjoy stropping it every day, and during the day, and just before actually cutting anything. And there are those that actually enjoy very expensive steel that goes sort of dull almost with the first couple of cuts and then stays sort of sharp for freekin' ever.

That's not me.
:)
 
These subjective tables are indeed garbage.
Most of their scores are generated by biased and often second hand opinions.
There is no such thing as pure edge retention... edge retention will vary alot according to what you cut... same thing for the other variables
 
quick read looks to be a great article, but im bouncing between projects and chores outside and when the rain clouds pass. got to sit down and read it in detail where I can focus on it. so yeah holiday weekend deal.......;)

thanks for taking the time and sharing with us.....looking forward to the discussions it creates.
 
I didn't find the rating articles that you reviewed very persuasive, and you clearly pointed out some of the problems.

Early in my learning curve -- and even later -- I looked in vain for valid and comprehensive steel comparisons. I now think it's a Quixotic quest. Authoritative information sources are lacking and grossly incomplete, bad sources are abundant and wrong; and the variables are too numerous: heat treat, blade geometry, edge geometry, cutting tasks, hardness, different types of toughness, stainless capabilities, sharpening standards, etc. So is S30V chippy? Well, I have S30V that chips under reasonable use and S30V that doesn't. I've had 3V that chips.

The best EDC I have is a rebladed Rukus in Vanax. I had the chance to pick my favorite frame and custom design the blade with the steel, grind and heat treat to match my personal cutting tasks. I've never been so happy with an EDC, but it took years of trial and error with various steels, heat treats and geometry to find that sweet spot.
 
Thank you for the very useful article.
But I'm sure you understand that the access to charts summarizing the ratings of steels is a irrepressible temptation for us knives nerds :-)
Long and detailed articles are super important but at the end we really need an accurate synthesis of all these details. So I really hope you'll post your chart!
 
Larin, as always I find your articles very good.

I too disagree with most steel rankings except for one fact, there are better and worse steels for every attribute but that in and of itself does not mean the results result in a TOTAL or Summary value. It is not easy to design one of those charts, but I would like it if you gave it a shot. We could sure use it.

THE Head Steel Nerd said, "I will probably make one eventually. Probably. Maybe. It’s possible. I’ll think about it." JUST DO IT!!!!
 
I thought this article would generate a little more discussion in the General section here. Must be the holiday.

I have an excuse for being late!!! On Friday, Saturday and weekends abutting holidays, I listen to the police scanner out of Chicago (BROADCASTIFY) and watch Twitter feeds re scanners and was up late.
 
Well done article, thank you Larrin. Pretty funny how terrible the one site really is. I mean it's not funny in that some people might read that unreliable info but at least there are some reliable info elsewhere.
 
excellent read! to me, those kind of articles are like video comparisons of different knives. A so-called "expert" starts to lay waste with knife "A" and by the time he gets to knife "C" he's all out of gas and then determines that knife "A" must be better because it was easier to chop with...
 
Well done article, thank you Larrin. Pretty funny how terrible the one site really is. I mean it's not funny in that some people might read that unreliable info but at least there are some reliable info elsewhere.
It's probably best to have a sense of humor about it
 
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Larrin, lol, you frankly spent too much effort to do this, but I'm sure it will be very useful for many people to gain understanding esp. after they're newly introduced to steels via one of those websites.

I would have kept it short and simple: "Don't believe 'ratings' on steels that try to reduce analysis to rankings of 1-10, or excellent/good/fair/poor. Instead, read in-depth reviews of specific knives you're interested in, and try to understand that heat treatment, edge geometry and steel choice all come together in this art form. Steel selection alone tells you nothing of the quality of a knife."

If you do ever make a 'steel ranking' table... don't. It really does oversimplify something that is far more complex than steel choice alone : -)
 
I agree that many people run with unsubstantiated claims or "facts" and these eventually become part of the collective knowledge base. For example, the "double carbide bonds" bit is featured in Wikipedia (unsourced) and consequently found verbatim on 100+ websites. It's good to let people know where misinformation lies so why not provide an alternative (i.e. facts)? Interesting article but my first question was, "well, why don't you do something better?". Then I saw your 6 points on why you haven't done a better comparison, which was a good response to the invariable question that came to my mind, but not too convincing. It is easy to critique the work of others and this might serve as a prodromus to your future work, but without providing a better alternative and being a bit snarky it seems a bit empty. For example, Elmax is produced by Bohler-Uddenholm, an Austrian company, albeit the steel is produced in Sweden.

It is good that you held some of these lists and their makers to task but I'm sure (or hope) that the average reader knows they aren't reading a peer-reviewed publication written by an authority when they see such lists on hobby websites. Lets face it, knife reviews even by the good guys are basically about aesthetics, finish, and possibly the ability to cut paper, cardboard, and rope. Maybe I'm one of the few, but I don't really take much of this kind of stuff to heart, but I do find it entertaining and it does open my eyes a little.

Knives are ultimately a hobby for most people and while they want the facts, most people aren't willing to sift through peer-reviewed publications or white papers. Hence, an ordinal ranking is more desirable and digestible for the average person. I agree it is not ideal but you have to know who the audience and users are. If you inundate hobbyists with minutiae most will likely turn away; it doesn't mean they are uneducated or unwilling, but they'd probably just rather spend that time sharpening their knives than reading metallurgical theory.
 
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I agree that many people run with unsubstantiated claims or "facts" and these eventually become part of the collective knowledge base. For example, the "double carbide bonds" bit is featured in Wikipedia (unsourced) and consequently found verbatim on 100+ websites. It's good to let people know where misinformation lies so why not provide an alternative (i.e. facts)? Interesting article but my first question was, "well, why don't you do something better?". Then I saw your 6 points on why you haven't done a better comparison, which was a good response to the invariable question that came to my mind, but not too convincing. It is easy to critique the work of others and this might serve as a prodromus to your future work, but without providing a better alternative and being a bit snarky it seems a bit empty. For example, Elmax is produced by Bohler-Uddenholm, an Austrian company, albeit the steel is produced in Sweden.

It is good that you held some of these lists and their makers to task but I'm sure (or hope) that the average reader knows they aren't reading a peer-reviewed publication written by an authority when they see such lists on hobby websites. Lets face it, knife reviews even by the good guys are basically about aesthetics, finish, and possibly the ability to cut paper, cardboard, and rope. Maybe I'm one of the few, but I don't really take much of this kind of stuff to heart, but I do find it entertaining and it does open my eyes a little.

Knives are ultimately a hobby for most people and while they want the facts, most people aren't willing to sift through peer-reviewed publications or white papers. Hence, an ordinal ranking is more desirable and digestible for the average person. I agree it is not ideal but you have to know who the audience and users are. If you inundate hobbyists with minutiae most will likely turn away; it doesn't mean they are uneducated or unwilling, but they'd probably just rather spend that time sharpening their knives than reading metallurgical theory.
 
I didn't find the rating articles that you reviewed very persuasive, and you clearly pointed out some of the problems.

Early in my learning curve -- and even later -- I looked in vain for valid and comprehensive steel comparisons. I now think it's a Quixotic quest. Authoritative information sources are lacking and grossly incomplete, bad sources are abundant and wrong; and the variables are too numerous: heat treat, blade geometry, edge geometry, cutting tasks, hardness, different types of toughness, stainless capabilities, sharpening standards, etc. So is S30V chippy? Well, I have S30V that chips under reasonable use and S30V that doesn't. I've had 3V that chips.

The best EDC I have is a rebladed Rukus in Vanax. I had the chance to pick my favorite frame and custom design the blade with the steel, grind and heat treat to match my personal cutting tasks. I've never been so happy with an EDC, but it took years of trial and error with various steels, heat treats and geometry to find that sweet spot.
That Rukus sounds like a great knife. I used to carry my Mini Rukus daily.
 
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