Rat Tail Tang? Strength Questions

Unbreakable

Unbreakable

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Sep 21, 2002
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I am really starting to get a taste for an HI. I have found that they are one of the last few places you can get quality LARGE beefy blades. I know that some of them have a rat tail tang. Now my experience with this sort of thing is limited to cheap knives that I have as a youth and more often than not those knives would eventually snap at the handle. I am by no means suggesting this is the case with knives as fine as HI... but I'd like to hear some first hand experience from some knowledgable users here... How durable are the HIs with rat tail tangs... anyone ever break them? Any handles ever come off? I have an instinct to shy away from rat tail types but I feel I it is based in a lack of understanding and poor experience with cheap knives. So I feel as though I would be cutting off my nose to spite my face as it were. Please educate me.
 
I made some remarks about the traditional handle tangs today in the Which Ang Khola from HI? thread, but Steely_Gunz addressed it more directly in post #19 of the Which Kukri for all around camping/wilderness survival use thread with the statement:

Steely_Gunz said:
PM, I wouldn't worry about the handle coming off ANY HI khuk out in the field. The hidden tang of a khuk is fat like a croc or kangaroo tail, not thin like a rat tail, and is one continuous piece of steel with no welds or breaks. The tang continues through the entire handle and is peened over a keeper at the end. Basically, it's locked up tight. Furthermore, the handle hole is filled with laha a natural (and VERY tough) epoxy that basically glues the tang to the inside of the handle. Compound that with the peening, and you have a handle that pretty much has to be broken or burned off the tang without the use of tools. You'd have to be trapped on Gilligan's Island before you had worry about the handle coming off the tang;):thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
Jake (Steely) knows what he's talking about. I've taken apart my share of khuks and modded them too. Its a lot of steel in there.
 
The standard tangs are quite sturdy and won't be breaking anytime soon. Picture is Svashtar's, the kukri is a museum model if I recall correctly.

MMtang1.jpg
 
I've beat the living crap out of a number of HI khuks and I can guarantee you the tang is nothing to worry about. The handle would go before the tang would ever go the thing is so tough.:thumbup:
 
Most fancy knives have a hidden tang. Look at big bowies forged by mastersmiths. A tang that is narrower but still almost full length is nothing to be worried about, assuming a quality product. I don't see why a tang that tapers a bit would matter. If it's going to break it would be at the blade/handle junction.
 
All of mine have been hidden tang. Five years of pounding on the big WWII has inspired a lot of confidence in that blade. Honestly, I would be astounded if it broke in my lifetime.

Frank
 
I have three large HI khukris; all of which have hidden tangs.

I've done some serious chopping and brush clearing with them... especially with my "power chopper" which is a 20 Ang Khola.

Considering the blows that Ang Khola has dealt to hardwood branches and logs and thick vines over the last few years, I doubt very much it will ever break.

In fact, I don't think a full tang would even be necessary. HI's hidden tangs are plenty tough enough.
 
Holy Cow, I'm quotable now?:o

As the other's have mentioned, unless you're literally a gorilla, then don't worry about the handle coming off or loose:thumbup:
 
I only have one HI so far, a little baby BAS, about 9 inches overall. I haven't given it too much real use yet, but I have battoned it through a few small logs to make kindling for a fire (not my prefered tool for that job, just kind of trying it out) and done some light chopping with it and it feels solid, even on such a small khuk. :thumbup:

I think that its worth noting that most full sized swords that I've seen disassembled have had rat tail tangs. Of course a sword is probably tempered to be springier than a khuk, but it still shows that that type of tang can withstand quite a bit of force.

Of course, if you're still concerned, you could always go for a chirwa type khuk. ;)
 
I've never seen any sign of weakness in my khuks as a result of the tang. I really cannot see one bending or breaking, and even if it did Yangdu would send you a new one.
 
I am reluctant to bring this up (especially after discounting the traditional tang as an issue), but I just ran across a posting from last year about a tang failure while searching for Movie Model references (the one being offered in today's DOTD is sleeker than any I recalled seeing before -- I like it and wondered how unusual it is). This post is from before my time frequenting the Himalayan Imports board and I haven't seen any similar problems reported while I've been active, but references are made within the posting to other, prior failures. It is my belief that the quality control or production process issues that resulted in those failures may well have been resolved. Anyway, here is the post where ferguson reported being injured as the result of a tang failure last year: Catastrophic blade failure
 
the failure mentioned above was from a forging flaw combined with a possible over-hardening in the transition area, rather than a design flaw. there was an un-noticed rusted crack in the corner at the blade shoulder which acted as a stress raiser and the crack propagated across the the widest and normally strongest part of the tang. i believe this incident was discussed at length by the boss lady with the kamis to ensure it would not happen again and that more quality control was required or else. as they do not have sophisticated xray and dye-penetrant testing facilities, this is mostly visual, with some physical tests prior to final finishing... as in any hand made item, there is opportunity for hidden flaws, as you can see from the lack of extensive failures being reported these rarely get out to the public, and if they do, they get replaced with a good one.

the more traditional stub tang of a few inches held in a blind hole by laha (nepali 'epoxy', tree resin and some other binders like dried dung ;) ) is still common out in the villages where they have a village blacksmith (kami) i understand, but can cause handle failures after just a few decades of hard use, at which point the owner just glues on a new one good for a few more decades.

some HI models have stub tangs, like the more decorative carved pommel hanuman. these are pinned by a metal pin thru the tang as in the photo of the dui chiruwa cat khukuri so the handle isn't going to come off. these HI models are normally not heavily used as they are more pretty, but they certainly could be, and if intended for more fleshy targets, are as good as any tang design.

the rat-tail tang got a bad rep from bad manufacturing proceedures by cheap uncaring western/oriental mfg. who would spot weld a threaded rod to a tangless blade to save some labor. welds by crappy welders tend to break.

HI's are not welded, not thin threaded rods, and are substantial.

in other words, you are unlikely to break a HI one.
 
It's very good news to hear that the described QA/production issue was addressed and that it hasn't been a problem since. It felt strange (and a bit dumb) to have posted comments praising the virtues of H.I.'s more traditional hidden tang handles vs chiruwa handles earlier in the day, then to come across ferguson's post later on. I considered not linking to it, but I really wanted to hear that the problem has been resolved and that my prior post was correct when I stated that H.I.'s hidden tang handles are not only strong and safe, but offer advantages over full-tangs that deserve more consideration than they typically get.
 
That's unfortunate that happened to Mr Ferguson, and it illustrates why it's important to test a blade yourself before honing it to razor sharpness and using it heavily.

When I get a new khukri or any other heavy chopper/hacker, I take it out in the woods to my testing block, which is an old oak tree which was knocked over by a storm about 15 years ago.

I begin by smacking the blade into it with low-to-moderate force with the edge, then the back, then the sides. Then I examine for any damage to the blade, handle, or any loosening of the handle. By low-to-moderate force, I mean not using much more power than letting the weight of the blade hit the target.

I gradually work up to full force blows, stopping to check the item after each time.


So far I have three HI Khukris, all of which are 20"+ long. Each one passed the test beautifully.
I have 100% confidence in them.
 
Wolf_1989 said:
When I get a new khukri or any other heavy chopper/hacker, I take it out in the woods to my testing block, which is an old oak tree which was knocked over by a storm about 15 years ago.

I begin by smacking the blade into it with low-to-moderate force with the edge, then the back, then the sides. Then I examine for any damage to the blade, handle, or any loosening of the handle. By low-to-moderate force, I mean not using much more power than letting the weight of the blade hit the target.

I gradually work up to full force blows, stopping to check the item after each time.

So far I have three HI Khukris, all of which are 20"+ long. Each one passed the test beautifully.
I have 100% confidence in them.
Click to expand...

And no matter who or whence any kukri, or any other large knife comes from, that is designed for chopping and other hard use a test such as Wolf describes should be done before trusting your life to the blade.:thumbup: :cool: It is simply common sense but then common sense is the least common of all the senses.:rolleyes: ;)

Uncle Bill tested a lot of the HI Blades, when he was still able to, this exact same way just to insure that nothing had gone wrong and the quality was where it was supposed to be.
After testing a blade in the above manner it's not likely to ever fail and if it should fail you want it to do so before you take it into the bush as if one should happen to break then it becomes a moot point because it's not likely that you will be able to return it until you return home, that is if you *do* return home.;) :D
 
Thanks for the link. I Belive that I am the newest owner of a Museum Model
when I picked it up from a DOTD one of the posters mentioned this little design quirk with them.

Not sure I'm going to test it though it was one of the HI line that I bought as a display model. Although it brings a bit of piece of mind when I use it to look for things that go bump in the night.

Marc Adkins

jnphares said:
Anyway, here is the post where ferguson reported being injured as the result of a tang failure last year: Catastrophic blade failure
Click to expand...
 
Yvsa said:
And no matter who or whence any kukri, or any other large knife comes from, that is designed for chopping and other hard use a test such as Wolf describes should be done before trusting your life to the blade.:thumbup: :cool: It is simply common sense but then common sense is the least common of all the senses.:rolleyes: ;)

Uncle Bill tested a lot of the HI Blades, when he was still able to, this exact same way just to insure that nothing had gone wrong and the quality was where it was supposed to be.
After testing a blade in the above manner it's not likely to ever fail and if it should fail you want it to do so before you take it into the bush as if one should happen to break then it becomes a moot point because it's not likely that you will be able to return it until you return home, that is if you *do* return home.;) :D
Click to expand...

It should be pointed out though that with most manufacturers, you will not have your blade replaced should it fail this test. HI will make it right.

I recently emailed Ms Yangdu to inquire if she had any more large (25" more or less) Chitlangi Khukris available. It will be tested the same way as the others. The Ang Khola (Kumar) and Sirupati (Vim) are my workers and I consider my prized horn-handled 21.5" Chitlangi (Sher) to be my 'battle khukri'. As such I sharpened it MUCH keener than the other two. To have a 21.5" razor sharp meat cleaver snap in use could be a potentially lethal situation.

Why do I test for durability?

When I was 16 and working on a neighbor's horse ranch helping clear brush, one of the guys I was with was chopping a 8" diameter locust log with an old machete. Upon a hard strike, the blade snapped in half and buried itself deep in his thigh. We had to take him to the hospital in the back of a pickup truck.

I don't ever want that to happen to me or anyone out in the woods with me.
 
Definatly not going to worry about it now,
Last night, 15 minutes after I posted this, I dropped my MM onto the concrete floor of my basement from a height of about three feet. The MM landed on the rondels. Near as I could tell no damage to the handle. my basment floor now has a nice divit in it. :)

Marc Adkins

winkleried said:
Thanks for the link. I Belive that I am the newest owner of a Museum Model
when I picked it up from a DOTD one of the posters mentioned this little design quirk with them.

Not sure I'm going to test it though it was one of the HI line that I bought as a display model. Although it brings a bit of piece of mind when I use it to look for things that go bump in the night.

Marc Adkins
Click to expand...
 
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