Ratweiler

[Cliff Stamp]

I still have a few more things left to do with this one, namely digging with the point in 2x4's (need to repeat it to get a better time/stab average), digging in the ground to check durability and ease of sharpening, do some runs on cardboard to benchmark edge retention, and lower the edge angle and check stability on heavy wood work and then soak it in salt water a few times and see what happens if anything to the coating.

Overall it is a very solid blade with excellent performance all around, no real weak points. One thing which I have been thinking of, mainly after discussions with possum, is that I would like to see the balance further out. This not only gives more power when chopping, but when doing baton and other work, it reduces vibration on tip impacts. Now you can shift the grip further back for more reach, but this also shifts the sweet spot back and you end up chopping right next to the handle and thus lose the potention for the faster tip.

I would like a thicker grip and a fully enclosed tapered tang, possibly annealed to reduce the vibration as I was getting too much feedback on chopping the frozen wood. This would at the same time shift the balance point further forward so win-win. You would need to play around with this to get the points right, both static balance (dead weight in hand) as well as dynamic balance (how it feels in rotation in movement) and the ideal impact spots for chopping. Anyway, really nice blade, insanely low price considering what you get :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/ratweiler.html

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

One thing which I have been thinking of, mainly after discussions with possum, is that I would like to see the balance further out. This not only gives more power when chopping, but when doing baton and other work, it reduces vibration on tip impacts. Now you can shift the grip further back for more reach, but this also shifts the sweet spot back and you end up chopping right next to the handle and thus lose the potential for the faster tip.

Ya know, I had never even considered the benefits of proper rotational nodes in regards to batoning. (don't do it much myself these days) I suppose the impacts from a baton would be just like any other impact, such as from chopping. I bet you can really tell the difference when doing work like that, due to the more controlled nature of the work.

But just to clarify for others reading, changing the mass distribution so that the balance point is further out may not necessarily move the impact node further towards the tip, depending on what it was like to start with. In fact, unless there is a pommel involved, I'm betting it would be pretty hard to get the impact node much further out than 1/3 of the way back from the tip. It's interesting because the pommel pulls back the balance point, while at the same time moving the impact node closer to the tip.

I'm not sure if you'd want it all the way at the tip for baton work, depending. On something like a clip point where the tip is below the spine, you may want to leave the impact point 1/3 back from the tip, so you can whack on the spine after the tip is already below flush with the wood. Then again, if you want to whack on the tip (as it protrudes out the other side of the log) after you're already pretty deep into it, maybe a tip node would be better anyway. I haven't done extensive testing here yet, but I believe the blade with a tip node would be more versatile.

I would like a thicker grip and a fully enclosed tapered tang, possibly annealed to reduce the vibration as I was getting too much feedback on chopping the frozen wood.

I have been thinking about going with a fully enclosed tang on my next big bowie, as it seems like that's what nearly every civilization settled on with their swords. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure why I always used an exposed full tang in the past. Just seemed like the thing to do, I guess. But I'd go with a tapered mortised full tang so I could still rivet the handle material firmly in place.

Does softer (annealed) steel actually dampen vibration? I wouldn't have thought it would make all that much difference in a practical sense. I wouldn't personally want to use soft steel for the tang on any knife that has a pommel, as then it has to take a huge amount of strain. Some guys do soften their tangs, but make up for it by using lots more metal instead to make up for the weakness. Otherwise one good whack on the tip could bend the tang and shatter the handle.

 

[t1mpani]

I would like a thicker grip and a fully enclosed tapered tang, possibly annealed to reduce the vibration as I was getting too much feedback on chopping the frozen wood. -Cliff

I believe what you're looking for is called a Camp Tramp, Cliff.

Seriously, I fully agree on the handles--I wish the Wauseon folks would make the standard a little thicker.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I believe what you're looking for is called a Camp Tramp ...

Camp Tramp is solid, I prefer that handle due to the tang and enclosed grip but like the shape and length of the Ratweiler, the Fusion grip is also really nice and I prefer its thickness, ideally meld elements of them all together and have Chas Clements make the sheaths and keep the price the same, surely that isn't too much to ask.

http://www.warriorschest.com/paladin.htm

Ya know, I had never even considered the benefits of proper rotational nodes in regards to batoning.

The impacts are generally more severe than direct chopping, a decent baton weighs 2-3 lbs and is about two feet long, most working smaller knives are a pound or so and are about a foot in length. I almost broke my off hand trying to steady the Extreme Judgement in batoning the transfer shock was so high, but chopping it wasn't an issue.

In fact, unless there is a pommel involved, I'm betting it would be pretty hard to get the impact node much further out than 1/3 of the way back from the tip. It's interesting because the pommel pulls back the balance point, while at the same time moving the impact node closer to the tip.

Essentially the impact node is the point where the blade would rotate if all the mass was just at that point, so if you can increase the moment of inertia while retaining the center of mass and mass itself, you can move the impact point far out and the blade is still very light in the hand when you pick it up, but now has a massive snap when you go to cut with it, and hits with much more power and a lot less feedback. It takes much more work to make a blade do this though and to clearify I really don't think it is sensible to ask for this in a blade of the price of the Ratweiler.

I was more of less just talking about ideals. I do think you can enclose the grip and taper the tang though, the big problem is that common perception is that "ideal balance" is just a static balance close to the choil with no regard to impact points or rotational balance and thus it is likely that many people would pick up such a blade and disregard it as "too heavy" and/or not appreciate the use of the impact point alignment and sweet spot versatility. How many judging balance by subjecting the blade to extreme impacts in several locations and noting the cutting ability and feedback.

On something like a clip point where the tip is below the spine, you may want to leave the impact point 1/3 back from the tip, so you can whack on the spine after the tip is already below flush with the wood. Then again, if you want to whack on the tip (as it protrudes out the other side of the log) after you're already pretty deep into it, maybe a tip node would be better anyway.

You generally don't care about the spine impacts in the middle to start the blade because you don't need to hold onto the handle there as the blade will be stable on its own. The real problem is when the blade is far into the wood and the grain is bad and the knife won't split the wood but has to chisel cut through it. Now you have to start using really heavy impacts in the tip as that is all that is exposed. I have seen wood take impacts from really heavy batons such as described above and only see <1/4" or more of travel per impact.

[soft tang]

I wouldn't have thought it would make all that much difference in a practical sense.

Not in the same magnitude as getting the mass distribution correct.

Otherwise one good whack on the tip could bend the tang and shatter the handle.

On swords I can see this because of the difference in radius of rotation for the tip and pommel, but on 7-10" blades they are much closer and the impact energies are radically smaller plus the pommel weight would be smaller. Martial applications would also be more stressful by another scale because the object being hit can also be moving. Both swords (or sword vs staff/polearm) could be accelerated by additional user movement such as the guy running, or worse yet on horseback, all of this adds right into the swords impact energy.

-Cliff

 

[Lukers]

Nice job on the review Cliff.

 

[Gryffin]

Nice review. :thumbup:

How do you think the Ratweiler compares to other non-custom knives of the same size and price, such as the Ranger RD-7. SRKW Camp Tramp, Becker BK7, CS Recon Scout, etc?

 

[outdoors4me]

Very good review - Thanks!

I too am interested in how it stacks up against the CT, especially with regards to chopping ability. I've read both reviews but the wide range for the RW (50-75% of the Wildlife Hatchet) vs. 55% for the CT leaves me wondering how noticeable the difference is.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How do you think the Ratweiler compares to other non-custom knives of the same size and price, such as the Ranger RD-7. SRKW Camp Tramp, Becker BK7, CS Recon Scout, etc?

Thew newer flat ground RD series blades should be very solid for the same class of work, hopefully Justin will spend some time adapting the handle as that grip could use some work, I like the profile of my SHBM, but the handle is a weak point, specifically it is a bit thin and the end hook doesn't serve well to drive from and it isn't ergonomic to work up over the guard.

The Camp Tramp and Ratweiler are very comparable in blade, the tip was more acute on the Camp Tramp I had, and its edge was more acute but slighlty thicker, such geometric differences are expected on production blades and it is quite possible that could reverse on another two blades, and the user can usually address such issues with some work on a stone.

The biggest difference is the handles, I like the feel and general handling of the rubber grips, they are more functional in the cold and better able to take heavy shock, however the shape of the Ratweiler is more versatile, especially for brush work where you can adapt the reach as well as the power.

The CU/7 is an easier comparison, the Ratweiler matches it in regards to general cutting and light handling and will significantly outchop it, more versatile in grip, an much better for prying and general really heavy utility work in general.

I too am interested in how it stacks up against the CT, especially with regards to chopping ability.

It does offer better chopping ability based on the work I have done with the two, I have only done a few dozen stock comparisons so far, I'll go up to about a hundred or so to get a more accurate ratio, but based on what I have seen and the general feel of power of impact, it is enough ahead enough to notice, probably in the middle of the range I noted. As noted though, production blades often have significant differences in edge thickness and angle and this can easily influence the performance by the same amount.

-Cliff

 

[blade14]

Cliff -
Any idea how I could get my hands on a ratweiler or camp tramp? Swamp rat doesn't seem to be selling them on their website any more.

 

[yoda4561]

Try waiting a bit, the new line should be out in two weeks .

 

[Cliff Stamp]

They have been discontinued, a major source of frustration for many as it leaves a pretty big gap in the demand for knives of that class. You can pick them up on the secondary market but the prices are pretty extreme.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I had a bunch of man made woods to cut up and used the Ratweiler, some saws, a hatchet and khukuri. This type of wood in general doesn't respond well to chopping tools because it doesn't split and thus they stick badly. I also timed the runs to get estimates of the sticking which worked ok, I mean to do it in general after getting the idea from Mike Swaim on rec.knives, but generally don't wear a watch.

In general the Ratweiler worked well, it was outclassed by the khukuri (18" Ang Khola" which isn't a surprise as the khukuri is about twice as heavy and much more forward balanced. The khukuri also bound heavy in the OSB and plywood due to its massive penetration, often twice its blade width, so the wood actually wrapped around the top of the blade. The very thick bit on the Fiskars hatchet also bound heavily but was the most fluid.

In general I would pick the Timber saw from Tashiro hardware for any extended use on the large pieces, trying to chop through the really wide pieces is really time consuming. You can actually crack even thick OSB pretty easy and MDF is easy to break as well, 3/8" plywood is fairly strong however. MDF also makes nice firestarter as it is easy to carve, plywood and OSB not nearly as much.

Ref :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/ratweiler.html#lumber

-Cliff

 

[Uncle Timbo]

Thanks Cliff, I knew I loved my Ratweiler. Now I feel I just know her a little better.

 

[Josh Muller]

the Fusion grip is also really nice and I prefer its thickness,

http://images.complete180.com/handlecomparison.jpg
http://mysite.verizon.net/res1udb2/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/img_0157.jpg

does swamp rat call the new "tactical" series of knives handles fusion handles as well?

busse uses the term (as seen on the steel heart at the bottom of the second picture), but i wasnt aware swamp rat was...

not really hear nor there and rather unimportant and trivial...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

does swamp rat call the new "tactical" series of knives handles fusion handles as well?

No, in the above I meant that all three grips have elements I like.

Thanks Cliff, I knew I loved my Ratweiler. Now I feel I just know her a little better.

It is a really solid knife, a lot of chopping ability for its size, cuts well, very durable, comfortable and secure in hand. I'd like more weight forward, but I have used a lot of really large knives, khukuris and such.

-Cliff