Razor-sharp edge or "user's" edge????

A

akula57

Joined
Jul 24, 1999
Messages
198
I'm not a sharpening (or cutting) expert. I have tested a hair shaving ATS-34 AFCK on a clothed dummy to which it did severe damage.
Yet I hear that Benchamade's are not well sharpened and lack a user's edge?

What's the story and who has the best out of the box knives (IMHO Spydercos are usually very sharp)?

 
Oh boy. You're asking for trouble on that question Akula57.

Remember the beating I took when I criticized BM at the Knife Testing thread?

I had people telling me to clam up and to sharpen my own blades rather than relying on the factory.

Of course, I maintain that it's a consumer issue and one should expect a reasonable edge, and good bevel, when you get a NIB knife.

Lesson learned: Never criticise Benchmade in front of Benchmade fanatics.
 
The criticisms of BM's edges are two: steep bevel angles and inconsistency. The steep bevel angles make the knife much harder to sharpen and reduce cutting performance, what they gain by this is edge strength. BM's factory edges are inconsistent, with some knives coming very sharp and some almost dull. Looks like you got a sharp one.
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The sharpest knives out of the box that I've gotten are CRKT, but YMWV.

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Jason aka medusaoblongata
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"I have often laughed at the weaklings who call themselves kind because they have no claws"

- Zarathustra
 
Hi Akula,

I, too, am not a sharpening expert (I couldn't do it if I tried...that's what Vinny is for, SOG's knife sharpening pro
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), but I know a bit here about edges and tasks. Some manufacturers might make an occasional mistake and send out a knife that is not as sharp as it should be.

But your comment referred to a "user's edge." A user's edge is directly related to the task the user is going to perform. Here is what I understand to be approximate sharpening angles for various tasks (and someone correct these if I'm a bit off):

  • 10-15 degrees / Hair shaving and kitchen cutlery, but dulls quickly
  • 17-25 degrees / general purpose pocket and hunting knives (SOG shoots for low 20s), this should still shave hair but not as easily
  • 30+ degrees / larger fixed bladed knives used for chopping and wacking, hair shaving skills are diminished
  • 40ish degrees / Axes, etc...hair shaving? I wouldn't try it, at least not on me...actually I try to keep knife blades off my my skin altogether
    smile.gif

Full Tang had a great suggestion. If you like a basic knife design and the materials used, having it resharpened is not a big issue. You'll be sharpening the knife for life, anyway. Yes, a knife should be "sharp out of the box." And maybe sending it back to the factory for a touch-up might be worth it under warranty. Every company will have its moments with QC concerns. If the quality of the edge is the ONLY concern, I can certainly think of worse (like a bad lock or fit and finish issues).

I once heard a comment here about not relying on the factory to adequately resharpen a blade if they didn't get it right the first time. I think this comment might be unfair. When mass producing knives (like the big companies do), unfortunately inconsistencies do happen. But in having a knife either periodically resharpened or redone (if it wasn't done right the first time) by the factory, the task of the knife sharpener now becomes more similar to that of a custom knife maker. Much more care is taken to get it "just right." When we resharpen a knife, "hair shaving" (I'm surprised that Vinny has ANY hair left) and paper slicing are done to make sure it's perfect!

I own a Benchmade 9100 Auto Stryker
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(and no comments about it not being a SOG; like you, I'm a knife enthusiast and collector). For me, it was just fine out of the box; though, the more important thing was the AUTO aspect. I would have gladly have had the edge touched up if that were a concern.

Ron@SOG

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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com
 
I have two Benchmade knives. A 710 P/S. That would be partially serrated
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And a Mel Pardue designed 850.

Both have ATS-34 blades. The 850 is a very elegant little knife, the bevels are more acute, and even. The knife is relatively easy to sharpen and gets razor sharp easily.

The 710 on the other hand suffers from all of the common criticisms of Benchmade's edges. The bevels were very wide, and uneven. The steel is very very hard, and likely to chip out when I finally get a good edge edge on it (still working on this one a little bit at a time). The edges I prefer are much more acutley beveled than many users would like. But I love to sharpen stuff. Many 710's and other BM knives need their edges reprofiled. I would hope that the factory repair service could fix this problem readily by returning the knife for re-edging. I am doing it myself.

On the other hand, all other aspects of the BM710 are first rate. The handle ergonomics are good, it is an extremely fast opener, and the axis lock is a really great thing. Reprofiling edge bevels is worth the effort.

Benchmade's 'problems' are twofold. One is a Decision to produce very wide edge bevels. These are commonly in what Ron called 'the axe' range. I think they should re-evaluate this production specification.

The second problem is in Quality Control (QC). The edge bevels should be even and symmetrical. If this was done properly, reprofiling and sharpening the thick edge bevels would be a Much easier job.

Other production companies produce very good edges on knives costing considerably less than Benchmade models with poor edge geometry (e.g. Spyderco, Kershaw, and Buck). Get with the program Benchmade!

Paracelsus
 
May I ask the moderators to forgive my urge to clarify a thing:
When speaking of "sharpening-angle", it is the angle between the hone and the blade while sharpening.
When speaking of a "knife's cutting angle" it is the angle between BOTH faces of the bevel, so, if symetrically ground, double the value of the "sharpening-angle".
Which might be the root for some missunderstanding.
When speaking of angles, it helps to specify which one you are talking about.
Happy sharpening
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D.T. UTZINGER
 
I bought a Benchmade 350S (Mel Pardue design). It had almost no point when I received it (brand new) and the serrations were cut poorly; one near the choil stuck WAY out. However, when I sent it back to Benchmade they replaced the blade and I received a shaving-sharp, nicely pointed blade which has been a pleasure to use.
Ron@SOG said it best - occasional mistakes can happen. My SOG Pentagon wasn't "shaving sharp" out of the box, but was perfect in every other way (and I'm not convinced that a dagger design needs to be shaving sharp!).
As far as "sharp-out-of-the-box" goes, I prefer Kershaw, Cold Steel and CRKT - but that's just been my experience, and there are many other brands I haven't tried yet...but I'm working on it!
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Hey, where were you guys when people were dumping on me at the knife testing thread for saying similar things?

I could have used some back-up!

It is true that some guys don't think too much of NIB factory sharpening. They take pride in their own ability to sharpen a knife. Some even turn it into bragging.

However, there are those of us who buy knives and rely on the factory to provide a good edge and bevel (bevel is important for future sharpening). In addition, I think a good factory edge is important for collecting knives which you may not use much, and resell in the future.

Besides, I've said this so many times: I feel cheated when I put down hard-earned money for a relatively costly knive that couldn't cut butter in a heatwave. It's the knife company's job to provide me with the best product they can. I pay them to sharpen the knife that I buy, they don't pay me...
 
Sharpest out of the box: Cold Steel! By the way, an LTC kukri clears a nice path on your arm with one swipe!!!!

I agree that when you lay down $100 and up on a folder, it ought to be sharp out of the box! Having said that, when I buy Benchmades I always stop and wonder which stone I'll use to grind in relief to thin out the edge bevels without thinking about how thick they are! Yes, Benchmade should thin out their edges.

That said, it doesn't take many sharpening sessions before you should be thinning out the bevels again (grinding relief, for those familiar with the Razor's Edge terminology) anyways, so I personally have concluded that it isn't *that* big of a deal if my new factory knives aren't hair shaving sharp out of the box.

If I bought a knife from Tom Mayo or any other custom maker and it couldn't ..."cut butter in a heat wave" then I'd be a little more upset!

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"Come What May..."
 
Oh, inresponse to the original question, if you like your hair-popping edges and are prepared to take the effort to maintain the edge more and refrain from chopping or cutting wire and crap like that, a nice thin edge is awesome! Use a steel often and you're in good shape. If you are going to be rougher on your knife or don't want to take the time to care for your edge often, have a thicker edge. Or get a custom made out of CPM 15V and you can have a really sharp, thin edged knife!!!!

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"Come What May..."
 
I'm not a sharpening (or cutting) expert. I have tested a hair shaving ATS-34 AFCK on a clothed dummy to which it did severe damage.
Click to expand...

Benchmade sometimes gets the edge bevels perfect, so the only problem with their edge is that it's too thick, and arguably too polished (although "too polished" is something just about every factory does). The AFCK has a couple features that really enhance performance -- great ergonomics, and that forward rake. Even with too thick an edge, it'll cut like crazy. But that doesn't mean you couldn't do better.

My Axis had a good edge out of the box. But on hard poly rope (3 big strands), it could slice through about 1/3 of one big strand in one stroke. After I had finished re-sharpening the Axis, it could go completely through 2 strands and 3/4 the way through the third. In other words, 8 times the performance for a single stroke. Think about that -- it's a lot! All I did was make the edge thinner (down from 25 degree to a 15 degree with 20 degree finish), and coarser (finished on a spyderco brown stone).

Anyway, the moral of the story is, your factory AFCK may perform great, but that doesn't mean it can't perform better, even while still retaining enough edge strength for your hard folder jobs.

Joe
 
Here's one that's been puzzling me for a while...
If I'm sharpening knives for use on natural rope, should I sharpen to a razor edge (the white Spyder stones) or leave the edge with microserrations (the black Spyder stones)?
 
You guys are 100% correct...you put down good money (or any hard-earned money) for a knife, there are some minimal expectations. For starters, that it is SHARP! If it is not sharp out of the box, warranty must apply. Period. The only hope is that it almost never happens and you don't see a trend.

Vinny, our in-house knife sharpening expert, has a pin on his shop apron. It is a red circle with a line through it (international symbol for "No"). Inside it says, "Dull Knives!" Priceless.
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Ron@SOG

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Website: www.sogknives.com
Email: ron@sogknives.com

[This message has been edited by Ron@SOG (edited 08-14-2000).]
 
I was up in Anchorage for a bit and ended up sharpening all of the knives that my brother and his significant other has. His current carry is a Benchamade with an ATS-34 chisel ground blade in a tanto shape. It was well used when I saw it, it sharpened up nicely, and he said that he and friend had used it to skin a whole walrus to see if it would do it. He said that the knife did fine but they had to relieve each other a few times as their hands got pretty tired, since it isn't the most ergo handle around.

He had an older Spyderco crock stick that worked nicely for medium and fine work but it was reeeeeaaaal slow for the coarse work that was needed. I was glad that I had brought along my newly aquired Ezelap diamond sharpener, the double credit card sized model, as it handled the coarse work just fine. I wonder though how long it will last as the surface seemed to get pretty smooth after only being used on about a dozen knives. I ended up using one of his belts as a strop to finish up the edges, and mentioned that for walrus he might find that just the medium sticks would work fine :^)
 
I prefer a thin highly polished edge for most cutting tasks. It has been my experince that Spyderco, CRK&T and Cold Steel have consistently been excellent performers out of the box. I have owned two Benchmades a Nimravus and a CQ7, both required extensive "thinning" to produce a usable edge.
In semi-production knives Chris Reeves and Newt Livesay are excellent about properly sharpening their knives.
Be safe,
Chad
 
Thanks Ron@SOG for the support!

Coincidentally, the whole mob scene with me started when I made the comment about how my two year old SOG Magnadot (SOG's economy knive) could cut way better than a brand new BM 710 AXIS. The AXIS is a great knife, but I maintain that SOG takes much more meticulous care into providing a useable knife straight out of the box.

I think a good sharp knife NIB is not only a requisite to the customer, it is also a reflection of the company's workmanship.

BTW, My SOG Power Pliers are still going strong too!
 
The reason that a lot of people don't place much value on NIB edges as they have learned that edge angles and grit finishes should be optomized for what they are doing. If you don't do this and leave the edge as NIB odds are you are doing far more work than you should be. The odds that a factory picked the exact specifications that would work best for you is not very likely.

As an example, Ron posted that 10-15 was for very light work, that is the *maximum* angle on any knives I own including the heavy choppers. For my light duty blades I go even lower. If a blade can't hold that angle without chipping or excessive rolling (with only 0.01" or less behind the edge), it is time to get a better steel, not thicken the edge and lose cutting performance.

Is this an excuse for companies to get away with sloppy uneven bevels, or just plain too thick ones? Of course not, but for most people it is something that they are going to modify anyway and thus they don't tend to assign much of any value to it.

-Cliff
 
I have yet to find a factory knife that was as sharp out of the box as I like it to be. No complaint with the factories here, but again, the sheer number of knives being pumped out means they cannot spend as much time on them as I like. Usually, the bevels are not the same on each side of the blade, and I have to spend a good bit of time making the bevels meet in the same place. I like a grabbing type edge that really digs into your thumbnail when lightly running the edge across it.

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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
 
Great responses. I agree that a $100 knife should be sharp out of the box. If it's not sharp, its just a piece of steel and who knows what else has been overlooked (or overcooked :-).
 
I like my knives to be on the keen side: 10-18. Even on large choppers, I go fine. When I can be bothered I'll go polished to start with. My field sharpener is a DMT green flat folder which takes off the polish.

However, not that many of my fellow adventurers like my knives as they find them too keen. They either find them too fast ie: when skinning they let the knife run off with itself; or a liability in that they make mistakes, brawn over brains, and scare themselves. Frankly they have a job to get on with and the knives they are used to have little finese to the edges. They like DMT diamond finished edges though.

Traditionally knives were never shipped particularly sharp/keen. The local edge was put on within a few weeks of use. Today, we expect them to as we pay for it. Benchmade have had a slagging. As one of their customers, having had several of their best and a duff, which was an AFCK, I'll join in.
I bought a Boker the other day at a fraction of what it should have cost. It had not moved in the shooting shop because the edge was dull. Its not now
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The lesson is that if you support your local shop you will know what you are getting. If you buy mail order then its luck. Every manufacturer has the odd quality control problem, but some more than others. You can follow the trend here on Blade Forum.

[This message has been edited by GREENJACKET (edited 08-15-2000).]
 
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