Re-beveling Stone for Freehand Sharpening

[P2P]

As of now I have Japanese water stones 600, 1000, 6000. I am very comfortable with these but they wear down too fast, especially when it comes to re-beveling.

Looking for a new coarse stone to do re-beveling on free-hand. Is diamond stones the best option here?

I am also looking for some good diamond and ceramic rods for my Emerson Commander.

Thanks for any help.

-Dalton

 

[Robs92XJ]

I like my two DMT Diasharps a lot. They are quite aggressive for reprofiling. I bought them after spending maybe 6 hours removing a chip on a Scandi-ground knife with my 800 waterstone. I have the extra course (~220 grit) and course (~320 grit). The XC is really big, maybe 10"x2", the Course is 8"x3". They work nicely in a grit progression to an 800 waterstone. They also do a nice job of flattening the waterstones, and other odd jobs like truing a bench plane's sole or deburring metal parts after I've cut them.

A little pricy but I recommend them for heavy work.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

For re-bevelling, a coarse/extra-coarse diamond is my preference. Works fast, cleans up easy. Very convenient. You can follow it with pretty much any other stones you wish, once the new bevel is set.

For diamond & ceramic rods, you really can't lose with DMT (diamond) and Spyderco (ceramics). They each excel in their respective specialty.

 

[Jason B.]

What brand waterstones?

What type of knives will you be sharpening?

If you want a diamond grinding stone then the DMT XXC 120 or the Atoma 140 would be the ones to look at. DMT XC and C are not recommended for use as a flattening stone and pale in comparison to the grinding power of a <150 mesh diamond hone.

For the commander round one corner of you waterstone.

 

[P2P]

Thank you guys.

 

[P2P]

My apologies, my coarse Norton Waterstone is a 220 grit. Does this change any of your answers?

I will be sharpening whatever knives are thrown at me. Though mainly plain drop and clip points. Recently I've been really trying to get into more experience with different steels. I just brought my FFG Delica VG-10 down to 34 degrees inclusive (Lanskey then finished on 6000) to see how it holds though no testing has been done yet.

As of now I have been throwing everything I can at my Mid-70's Shrade Old Timer Large Stockman, I believe in 1095 correct me if I'm wrong. The bevels are pretty worn in certain areas and it could use a re-bevel. That will probably be my second project on the new stone diamond stone, after I practice on a cheap on first of coarse.

The XXC and XC seems nice. Can I jump from XXC Diasharp to a 220 water stone?

 

[Jason B.]

As I see it you do not have steels that warrant the use of diamond. If you had a list of super alloys to sharpen then I would say go for it but basic carbon and low alloy stainless are better sharpened on something less aggressive.

Maybe a Nubatama Ume 120 or 180? I have not yet used many coarse waterstones but the ones I have are very good.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

My apologies, my coarse Norton Waterstone is a 220 grit. Does this change any of your answers?

I will be sharpening whatever knives are thrown at me. Though mainly plain drop and clip points. Recently I've been really trying to get into more experience with different steels. I just brought my FFG Delica VG-10 down to 34 degrees inclusive (Lanskey then finished on 6000) to see how it holds though no testing has been done yet.

As of now I have been throwing everything I can at my Mid-70's Shrade Old Timer Large Stockman, I believe in 1095 correct me if I'm wrong. The bevels are pretty worn in certain areas and it could use a re-bevel. That will probably be my second project on the new stone diamond stone, after I practice on a cheap on first of coarse.

The XXC and XC seems nice. Can I jump from XXC Diasharp to a 220 water stone?

Is that Old Timer stockman an 8OT? You're correct, it's 1095 steel on the older USA versions. These are great knives, and will sharpen up on almost anything. Knifenut is correct, in that diamond could be overkill, on this one anyway. If using diamond on 1095, going very, very gently with a fine diamond hone (like DMT's red/25 micron) will set a bevel very quickly on the Old Timer's blades. No need for anything more aggressive than that, with diamond. Even at that, the fine diamond will still remove metal from those small, thin blades very quickly. Much of the difficulty in using diamond on 1095 is, the diamond can create and erase a burr in almost no time. If one isn't really paying close attention for the burr formation, it might be missed when it happens. The natural inclination then, for most people, is to keep on grinding away at the steel. In a nutshell, it's easy to remove a ton of metal from a 1095 blade, and it seemingly never gets 'sharp' (as normally indicated by the burr formation).

Having said that, I have a '70s vintage Old Timer 8OT myself (as well as a 108OT, and a couple of 25OTs), and I just use some wet/dry sandpaper to set bevels (~400 grit) and/or maintain all of them (~1000+ grit, aside from stropping). I use a convexing method (edge-trailing, with the sandpaper on my leather-on-oak strop block). 1095 responds very nicely to this method. You can also use the sandpaper on glass, with an edge-leading stroke and light pressure, if you prefer a V-bevel.

 

[P2P]

You guys rock with all the info.

This old timer is earning a permanent spot in my pocket recently. Why is it so easy to sharpen? Is that the nature of 1095?

 

[P2P]

Is that Old Timer stockman an 8OT? You're correct, it's 1095 steel on the older USA versions. These are great knives, and will sharpen up on almost anything. Knifenut is correct, in that diamond could be overkill, on this one anyway. If using diamond on 1095, going very, very gently with a fine diamond hone (like DMT's red/25 micron) will set a bevel very quickly on the Old Timer's blades. No need for anything more aggressive than that, with diamond. Even at that, the fine diamond will still remove metal from those small, thin blades very quickly. Much of the difficulty in using diamond on 1095 is, the diamond can create and erase a burr in almost no time. If one isn't really paying close attention for the burr formation, it might be missed when it happens. The natural inclination then, for most people, is to keep on grinding away at the steel. In a nutshell, it's easy to remove a ton of metal from a 1095 blade, and it seemingly never gets 'sharp' (as normally indicated by the burr formation).

Having said that, I have a '70s vintage Old Timer 8OT myself (as well as a 108OT, and a couple of 25OTs), and I just use some wet/dry sandpaper to set bevels (~400 grit) and/or maintain all of them (~1000+ grit, aside from stropping). I use a convexing method (edge-trailing, with the sandpaper on my leather-on-oak strop block). 1095 responds very nicely to this method. You can also use the sandpaper on glass, with an edge-leading stroke and light pressure, if you prefer a V-bevel.

Doesn't that sandpaper costs add up quick? That is what frustrates me with my water stones. Is there an ideal diamond stone grit for honing 220, 1000 grit water stones? How about honing 6000 and prep stones?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

You guys rock with all the info.

This old timer is earning a permanent spot in my pocket recently. Why is it so easy to sharpen? Is that the nature of 1095?

Not too many hard carbides in 1095. Just the basics of carbon and iron, for the most part. This is true of many or most of the common carbon steels, and also many of the simpler stainless steels. The carbides (vanadium carbides, in particular) are what tend to make other alloys much more abrasion resistant. Abrasion-resistance is what also makes sharpening many of the 'super steels' much harder to sharpen (abrade, in other words), by comparison. For example, S30V and similar steels have both very high carbon content, and very high vanadium content. The excess of those two elements in the mix combine to form vanadium carbides, which are extremely hard. Vanadium carbides in steel have been compared to the gravel/pebbles/rocks added to cement, to make concrete. The carbides are the 'rocks' in the mixture, which make the concrete much more durable than plain cement. This may be a somewhat 'unscientific' analogy, but it helps to describe how the vanadium carbides affect the character of the steel.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Doesn't that sandpaper costs add up quick? That is what frustrates me with my water stones. Is there an ideal diamond stone grit for honing 220, 1000 grit water stones? How about honing 6000 and prep stones?

The sandpaper cost is around a buck per sheet (9" x 11"). I use roughly 1/4 to 1/3 sheet at a time, for use with my strop block. On smaller blades like your Old Timer, a little paper goes a long way. The coarse & medium grits (up to ~600 or so) will be quicker to lose some aggressiveness for heavy metal removal. However, at the finer grits (800+), the polishing capability gets even better as the paper smooths out. The silicon carbide abrasive is still there, but it tends to fracture/break down to smaller particle sizes. That said, unless you're doing a LOT of re-bevelling work, you won't be using the coarser grits very often anyway. Once a bevel is set on mine, all of the subsequent maintenance I might do on a blade will be at higher grit (above 600 for all, and above 1000 for most of mine), and even then, only a minimal number of passes are needed on the paper, to get an edge in stropping shape again.

I won't make a recommendation as to what diamond grit to use for flattening your water stones, as I haven't used water stones yet. Knifenut1013 has a lot of experience there, so I'm sure he could help out.

 

[P2P]

Great analogy. I have really been trying to learn more about steels and this was extremely beneficial.

I thought high vanadium would make a finer edge capabilities, but now I see that must be wrong. Obsessed I seem to have your attention through this thread so I have an question for you. Soon I will be looking into a fixed blade for camping, 4 inches or less, could you suggest a good forum for reviewing the differences between most of the common carbon steels?

 

[pwet]

vanadium refines the grain when used in very litte quantity. like in most CroMoVa simple stainless steels.

for flattening i'd stick with a XXC or XC DMT. buy a cheapo little plates for routine unglazing and flattening. this one can be 600 grit but no finer, it's useless and it will wear fast. DMT advises nothing finer than XXC for waterstone maintenance because finer plates have less diamond thickness and the waterstone's slurry can wear the plate and dislodge diamonds.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Great analogy. I have really been trying to learn more about steels and this was extremely beneficial.

I thought high vanadium would make a finer edge capabilities, but now I see that must be wrong. Obsessed I seem to have your attention through this thread so I have an question for you. Soon I will be looking into a fixed blade for camping, 4 inches or less, could you suggest a good forum for reviewing the differences between most of the common carbon steels?

Actually, you're right. As pwet mentioned, in relatively small amounts, vanadium does help refine the grain. In steels with very large amounts of it, a small portion still works to that effect. The excess vanadium left over is what combines with excess carbon in the steel and makes the carbides. For getting a start on learning about different steels, and the factors affecting how they perform, have a look at this 'sticky' thread from the top of the Maint forum page:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/368828-Steel-FAQ

 

[P2P]

Actually, you're right. As pwet mentioned, in relatively small amounts, vanadium does help refine the grain. In steels with very large amounts of it, a small portion still works to that effect. The excess vanadium left over is what combines with excess carbon in the steel and makes the carbides. For getting a start on learning about different steels, and the factors affecting how they perform, have a look at this 'sticky' thread from the top of the Maint forum page:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/368828-Steel-FAQ

Will do thank you guys for the help. Thread closed.