Re: "shaving sharp" and "hair-popping sharp"

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I just came back from Blade West, where I had an opportunity to test a hypothesis of mine about "shaving sharp and "hair-popping sharp". I hear all the time about knives being "shaving sharp" or "hair popping sharp"; when I try these knives myself, they are almost inevitably not able to shave my hair.

Perplexed, I hypothesized that my body hairs are much softer and finer than most, and thus push over, instead of standing stiffly enough to be cut down, when they meet knife edges.

I tested this conjecture at Blade West. I went from table to table, asking almost all of the knife makers whether their blades were shaving sharp. All assured me that they were. I asked them to show me, and most every one did use their knives to successfully shave off a small patch of their own hair. Then I took the same knife (with the maker's permission) and tried to shave the hair off my own arm. In almost every case, I was unable to. At that point, I asked them if they would mind trying to shave the hair off of my own arm. They, too, were unable to shave the hair off my arm in most cases.

Now, this was not done as a perfect rigorous test; but, for me, I'd say that this was a solid lack of refutation to my concerted effort to refute my hypothesis. I continue to hold as true the conclusion that some property of my arm hairs makes them unusually hard to shave.

What constitutes "shaving sharp" or "hair-popping sharp" is, I venture to guess, strongly dependent upon the thickness, coarseness, stiffness, etc., of an individual's body hair. "Shaving sharp" for my body hair requires a much higher level of sharpness than for the majority. It's worth keeping in mind, when describing a knife as "shaving sharp" or "hair-popping sharp" that this is a widely varying standard, which doesn't always say much about sharpness, on its own. Knife sharpness can be expressed more informatively by means of comparing it to other knives. Knife sharpness can also be described with greater precision in terms of the results of one or more standard knife sharpness tests.

--Mike

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By the way, there were only two knifemakers at the show whose knives were sharp enough to shave me. One was Murray Carter, whose knives were far and away the sharpest at the entire show.

---Mike
 
I, too, have very fine, soft arm hair, that most Gillet razors would have a hard time shaving. Try shaving your leg hair, instead--in small patches. ;)
 
As I've gotten older my arm hair has gotten harder to shave. This seems to track the greying of my beard. I would guess that it is due to the hair getting harder and smaller in diameter. The hair pushes over easier now than it used to.
 
Evolute,

It's obvious from your name...you are a mutant! When you are told to have a 'high fiber' diet, I doubt they mean that you should munch kevlar. ;)

Seriously, I do wish there was an accepted standard, but there is not. Yes, there are things like slicing a falling ribbon, newsprint, or other material, but the materials vary as does the skill of the slicer, so...people come up with a 'folk' standard.

I can produce an edge on most of my knives that will shave hair anywhere on my body but, my hair isn't fine. I HAVE pushed down a bit too hard and taken out a chunk of skin, so it would be interesting to try on some really fine stuff.


Steve-O
 
Steve-O,

I wasn't referring to an accepted standard between different knife testers, though that might be nice. I was referring to a testing standard that a single knife tester would use for testing multiple knives.

For example (copied from a long-ago thread), here's one of the standard tests I use for testing push-cutting sharpness:

"As for my sharpness measurement method, I did it as follows: I tied a loop of Johnson & Johnson waxed dental floss to the lid of a sport-style water bottle. I lifted the water bottle (very gently and slowly) by means of the knife to be tested, edge facing up [and level], slipped under the loop of dental floss. I added water to the water bottle in 3-5 gram increments, until the weight of the water bottle was enough pressure for the knife to cut the dental floss. Then I weighed the water bottle full of water."

Not perfect, but it does show that it's not hard to come up with methods to collect fairly good data, using regular supplies around the house. Using a method like this, I can get a repeatable result, consistent within about 5 grams. I can get results that are directly comparable between knives in a way that imparts quantified information.

--Mike
 
The problem is, even on the same person, how well can you use such subjective tests. Sharpen a knife now and test it on our arm, now several weeks later try out another knife. Can you compare in an informative way the manner in which it performed as compared to the one a few weeks ago.

Alvin Johnson was the first person I saw describe nonsubjective tests for sharpness on the internet, way back in 98 and he was doing it long before then. The tests I use for sharpness are based on the approach he had, different methods in some cases but the same end goals.

I have also had that exact same problem with some makers, I felt their knives were less than optimal, but they felt they were fine as they all shaved, probably had really coarse hair.

[not that shaving anyway is a 100% coverage test of sharpness]


-Cliff
 
Come to my house, I'll shave ya, :)

Lot of knives when sharpened stop short in the process, a little further/longer will be able to attain the keen edge.

Blade geometry is a high factor of course, but I sharpened a bolo this weekened that became quite keen, easily slicing cigarette paper which is not easy to do cleanly. I also sharpened a knife that was made by Brian Lyttle, he used the knife during a lecture on flat grinding, heat treat and handle wrapping, all of which were very good and interesting. Since I had my stones handy he asked me if I would be so kind as to put the final edge on, talk about being under pressure! But when the handle wrap was completed and dry to the touch, I sharpened it up, nice O1 steel blade took such a WICKED edge the likes I've only seen on my old Jimmy Fikes Cabin Boy, exceedingly sharp is the word.

In a trade while there, I picked up a Louis Van Der Walt folder with ATS-34 steel, the knife was this fellows every day carry and wasn't too sharp along parts of the edge, when I got home late yesterday I took the time to sharpen her up nicely, it was lightly sharp from my Spyderco Profile stones but needed to set the bevels on my Nortons and now...she be sweet!

So, if you'd like, I'd be willing to sharpen your knife for you, depending on it's make and steel, some knives don't take a very good edge, but most will do the job. Or better yet, get some stones, and start learning the art of sharpening, it's a good thing to know how to maintain your blades!

G2

ps,
when I test shaving sharp, I move the knife down the arm and not back
towards the arm, just me, on a SUPER keen edge, you can do what I call Tree Top Trimming, cutting the tops of the hairs off while leaving the bottom in the arm...not easy to do and with your softer hair, that may be difficult but not impossible..

double ps,
I'll second Murray Carter knives, outstanding blades! and a very nice person to talk with! ;)
 
Cliff,

I agree that subjectivity in comparing knives is an issue, to some degree. Adding significant timespans surely adds variability, too. However: (A) I think it can work well for several knives compared at the same time; (B) even over time, and even without standardized tests, I think subjective comparisions can have good enough precision and accuracy for accurate ranking-comparisons of gross differences; (C) comparisons over time can be greatly bolstered by careful and controlled testing methods.

I imagine that you must, at least, agree with this last point, since you try to do this, yourself.

By the way, I kind of think of my method for testing push cutting sharpness as an inverted, but very similar method, to one of yours: you push the edge down on thread on a scale (if I'm understanding correctly); I hang weighted thread over an edge.

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Another very notable aspect of this--hinted at in your phrase "100% coverage test for sharpness"--is that sharpness is a reification of a complex, multi-faceted set of cutting characteristics. A given knife, with a given edge, will perform differently for different kinds of cutting (such as different performance for push cutting than for slicing), and will perform differently in different kinds of materials, such as Neal's Yard Montgomery cheddar cheese, Hanes Beefy-T shirt knit cotton, and a Jeffrey pine walking stick. "Sharp" performance for one type of cutting on one type of material doesn't necessarily predict "sharp" for another type of cutting on another type of material. (I know you are already aware of this; I'm bringing it up for readers who may not be.)

--Mike
 
Evolute :

[subjective tests]

(A) I think it can work well for several knives compared at the same time;

Yes, if you have enough experience. I can do shaving tests and rank knives that are very close in sharpness (checked by the quantitative tests I perform) as I have done a lot of shaving with blades that are very similar in performance. However the problem comes in recording such ability in a way which allows meaningful transfer of information to a third party or yourself at a later date.

One of the biggest problems in this regard is that perception changes. If you asked me a few years ago for what I considered sharp, it is very different than the answer I would give you know. I have simply been exposed to blades of higher levels of sharpness, plus gained more experience sharpening and thus have a higher standard, thus when I reference notes of a few years ago I have to consider this dated perspective.

(B) even over time, and even without standardized tests, I think subjective comparisions can have good enough precision and accuracy for accurate ranking-comparisons of gross differences;

Yes, it isn't difficult for example to note several large classes, it is only when wanting to rank close levels of sharpness that you need to be more careful. This is of merit when comparing work by different makers for example, or trying different hones. Again, more of a problem over time and when trying to discuss results with others, which is always a problem with anything subjective.

(C) comparisons over time can be greatly bolstered by careful and controlled testing methods.

Yes this isn't difficult. A slice of newsprint is an easy test for push shaving sharpness for example, and thin hard shelled rope for slicing aggression. It is easy to quantify performance on both of these materials (which are very consistent), and thus remove subjective rankings and thus allow determination in an inbiased manner.

By the way, I kind of think of my method for testing push cutting sharpness as an inverted, but very similar method, to one of yours: you push the edge down on thread on a scale (if I'm understanding correctly); I hang weighted thread over an edge.

Yes, same thing.

A given knife, with a given edge, will perform differently for different kinds of cutting ...

Yes, at the least test for push cutting and slicing sharpness. Measuring cutting ability is much more complex task and a decent measure of performance requires use of a range of testing media which covers a broad range of elastic and frictional properties. At the very least test both shallow and deep cutting with dynamic and static loads.

-Cliff
 
I have suspected for a while that there is a big difference in arm hair types. My hair is so fine that I have to gel it (the stuff on my head), or else even when I let it dry naturally it looks blow dried :(

It used to bother me that I had to work really hard to get a knife shaving arm hair sharp, and couldn't manage hair popping or "tree top trimming" sharp at all, with Sharpmaker or Edge Pro. I can put such a mirror polish on an edge that it will push cut newsprint with no decernable drag and the very faintest of "shhhsh" noise.
As a test I took a new double edged razor blade and tried that, it would shave Ok, but wouldn't hair pop at all.

On a related note, a couple times I have been shaving (face) and after cleaning and putting away my razor I have noticed a stray wisker or two, without a thought I have reached for my folder and took them off sweet as a nut.
 
Good thread! I wonder about the durability of such edges. I have gotten "tree trimming sharp" before, but after some whittlin', it was gone quickly.

Leads me to wonder if it is a burr. Maybe, maybe not. My straight razor will trim trees, but the edge is VERY fragile.

Any thoughts?

PS - Gary, take that maniacal look out of your eyes when you offer to shave someone... :D
 
You are one crazy yet trusting bastid! Letting makers shave your arm is pretty gutty... I bet ya made a few of them swallow hard! I too have the same problem with the soft fine hair. Oh well, no embarassing hairless patches on our arms to explain.
 
Originally posted by swede79
...PS - Gary, take that maniacal look out of your eyes when you offer to shave someone... :D


hehe ok ok, used to shave guys arms a long time ago, as they didn't believe their knives would shave and didn't trust their own hands...;)
G2
 
swede79 :

I wonder about the durability of such edges.

A properly sharpened edge gets stronger as it gets sharper as you are refining the alignment and/or polish. The myth about sharpening leading to weakening comes from improper method. For example I personally used to rely on the final stropping to create much of the sharpness, this tends to produce sharp but highly deformed edges which are weak and will even relax to blunt without use. The problem here was leaving too much work for a very fine abrasive, and leaning too hard on the strop to compensate.

-Cliff
 
This is indeed a fine topic. I take pride in getting the knives I own hair popping shop with a good bite to the edge. Now here is a question. The edges that I used to get hair popping sharp seemed somewhat frail for hard use. They wouldn't chip out or anything but they would not stay sharp for long periods of time. I figured it was oxidation to the edge as well as anything else.

I purchased a Blink oh maybe 3-4months ago. Very nice edge out of the package and believe it or not it is much more robust than my Kershaw Whirlwind. Anyways carried it as my duty knife for most of this time and finally got it dull. Matter of fact it lasted much longer than I thought it would for sharpness. Now here is the clincher. In hand sharpening this knife and holding it in the sunlight I could see a super fine edge along the cantle. Not a burr mind you but a very grabby super fine edge. One couldn't feel the edge as you rubbed your finger over it but it would grab thin layers of dermis just the same. It cut and grabbed like no tomorrow. Being the anal type in looking at it with a magnifier I figured the edge wouldn't last. I was right. Didn't last more than a couple of weeks of steady use. Not hard use either. Just everyday type of stuff.

So I started experimenting with the edge. I would get it to this point again and then take that tiny bit off by stropping on some newsprint/yellow pages. I did this and now have what I consider a very sharp but hard edge. Not a super fine looking edge but still a grabby one and it seems to me to be a very hard edge for lack of a better term. It has stayed this way too. I hope I am not confusing anybody here by what I mean. I have the same type of edges now on my CQC7's(done by a professional) and on my Raven done by me. Looking at the above mentioned implements even with a 10x magnifier you don't see that little tiny burin of edge along the knife. It just comes to the apex of the edge and voila a hard sharp edge.

I did the same thing to two of my hunting knives. I have a very large Old Timer up swept hunter(150T) and I have done this type of edge to my Master Hunter in CarbonV. Both came out very well indeed. Easily pop hair and good and grabby but for lack of a better term a nice hard edge. One that isn't really fine or acute either. Both of these knives cut at the slightest pressure. Anyone else have this experience or even are familiar with what I am talking about? Keep'em sharp
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
swede79 :

A properly sharpened edge gets stronger as it gets sharper as you are refining the alignment and/or polish. The myth about sharpening leading to weakening comes from improper method.
-Cliff

As much as I hate to agree with Cliff, I will ;) :D

The coarsest plain edge I ever recived from a factory was a Strider SNG, looked to have been sharpened on a very coarse belt sander. The edge was undoubtably sharp, but it chipped very easily, I then put what I considered a semi-polished edge on it and no more chipping. The thing I concluded was that with such agressive micro serrations each "tooth" was not sufficiently supported to withstand knocks against something of any hardness, so the smaller the micro serrations (better polished), the more the "teeth" were supported, the less chipping and edge wear, the longer it stayed sharp.

To bring the topic full circle, this very coarse but sharp edge has been the best arm hair shaver I ever had. Perhaps the hairs were falling in the "V" between the teeth and so were held straight up during the cut, not sure but it did shave a strip the full legnth of my forearm in one smooth motion. Pity the edge was too fragile though.
 
There is also a further complication regarding durability that it depends on push vs slicing. A very coarse edge has very low durability in regards to push cuts, but lasts very long when slicing even in very dirty material. The opposite is true for a highly polished edge.

-Cliff
 
I vote that we use Evolute as the new Hair Shaving Standard. He could go to Blade shows and send back reports. Cliff could use him in his evaluations. Sharpness could then be quantified in "Evolutes" with different levels being being assigned to greater shaving ability:

Of course we'd have to allow for renewal periods for Evolutes hair to grow back.

Just kidding , Evolute. Your comment was a good one.
 
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