Real damascus?

B

bwitty

Joined
Dec 5, 2003
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103
Being new to all this I was wondering how to tell if a blade is real damascus rather than having a pattern etched on to it? are you supposed to be able to see the layers in the thickness part of the blade as well? I can post pics of a vlade in questin if I can get the closeups good enough.
 
depends a lot on how its constructed. You may not see much until its ground. If you are just starting out you might want to practice on something else. If nothing else etch it and look at the wide part of the billet. If you do a search on etching in this forum you will find gold.

Mark

Welcome to shop talk by the way.

Mark
 
Are you confusing differentially hardened with damascus ? Damascus blades are made of layers of two or more different steels. That might not be visible unless it is etched. Differentially hardened blades have a different structure (of the same steel) on the edge and spine which is usually visible.
 
It has a deffinate bullseye type pattern on the blade, I was just wondering if those patterns can be duplicated onto a normal blade.
 
If you are asking the difference between real and fake damascus - real damascus is layered steel that has been etched to differentiate the different types of steel. Fake damascus is plain steel etched to look like damascus. Careful examination may reveal the difference but a sure test would be to polish an area then re-etch it , if the pattern comes up it's the real thing.
 
I've just gotta disagree here. Real damascus is wootz. Everything else is ... something else. ;)

Daniel
 
The common name for pattern welded steel is called damascus. Wootz is not layered steel, it is steel that has the carbide layers form as the steel is cooled, or so I was told. It is a little more complicated than that but that is basically what happens.
What Mete said:
Finger prints also make nice looking patterns when etched (accidently of course) and are not repeatable patterns if polished and re etched. :) I think you could cover the blade with resist and scratch you a pattern or picture in it before you etch it. I have done that a few times but my artistry powers were insufficient to convey my thoughts to steel. :)
 
Be very careful, I have seen several fake Damascus blades come from ebay advertised as the real thing. But as stated, if you polish then re-etch the pattern will return if its real. I use ferric acid (pcb etchant from radio shack) mixed with 1 part water and 1 part vinegar. I etch most blades 30-45 minutes.
 
Originally posted by raker
The common name for pattern welded steel is called damascus. Wootz is not layered steel, it is steel that has the carbide layers form as the steel is cooled, or so I was told. It is a little more complicated than that but that is basically what happens.
Click to expand...

Maybe we shouldn't refer to patternweld as damascus. I brought it up since the topic was "Real Damascus", and many folks have difficulty seeing the difference between patternweld and wootz, the real damascus. I had it happen today when a well known maker of over 20 yrs. experience was looking at some of my wootz.

Daniel
 
well ive never etched aanything as of yet so I just dont feel comfortable doing that myself.....I am sending the blade to someone for finishing and will have him verify if its genuine or not I guess. Thanks for all the input!
 
First of all,want to know another question that will get many a grown man bladesmiths' panties in a wad? Ask them if forging is better than grinding.... ;)

Now, to your question. Usually a look at the price is your first indication if it's real damascus or pattern-welded steel. Also, if they mention 2 steels in the blades composition, you either have damascus or a very dirty liar we will be very happy to help you flog. Also, maybe it's me, but I have found that the etched damascus lines always seem darker in comparison to the surrounding steel. If you get a chance to hold a damascus steel knife and look at the lines, holding at different angles in the light, you'll kind of get a feel for what real damascus is supposed to look like. Beyond that, just send a photo and we could probably figure it out for you.

Tim
 
damascus2.JPG


looks real to me
 
I am not about to try to start a knife fight here, or am I saying that someone here doesn't know what they are talking about.

True damascus steel (historically) is also known as "crucible steel" or wootz steel. It was regarded as having a "wood" pattern noticable without etching. The chinese were the first to make the stuff IIRC. The name Damascus comes from the area of the middle east/asia that made it famous.

What we call damascus today is in reality pattern welded steel, and holds very little in similarity to its ancient cousin.

Personally, I don't give a damn what you call it. If it was worked properly, and has a pattern then you can call it whatever you want to, but history will tell you the stuff we beat together from the forge it not damascus. I like the pretty patterns, and if you have the mindset to come up with a new one that didn't require a wire edm machine to make,, then you have done something.

Take this for what it is worth, but you can look around the net for wootz steel and find alot of history on damascus, and crucible steel.

Doc
 
Looks real to me too.

If it is a fake, somebody spent alot of time etching it, would have probably taken more time to fake that one than to make a real one.
 
Those look alot like the pattern-weld made by Damascus USA...they use the bird's eye pattern alot. I don't know the steels used, and don't recall ever reading about one being tested for performance.

To be sure, remove the pattern from a section of the tang that will be covered by the handle (use 320 grit sandpaper, or whatever is on hand), and use some type of acid to etch the section...lemon juice should do the trick nicely. If the pattern comes back, you have true pattern-welded material.

It should be noted that some cheaply produced 'damascus' is inferior to good steel from the mill. Damascus USA has a fairly good reputation, but without knowing the steels used I have no idea how well they would perform.
 
Look at the recasso shoulder/grind area You can see the layer have been cut through. It looks real to me. I have seen a few etched blades
from asia. They generally have more of a decorative artwork appearance. As someone else refered to it this blade seeams to have a birds eye damascus/ patern welded patern in the steel not etched on as a patern. I have a sample piece of damacus/ patern welded steel with the same pattern as your knife I just have not made the blade yet.
 
Well thank you for all the input on this matter! I went to Damascus USA and sent them an email, I also linked the ebay auction in which my wife purchased it. Mr. Charlton promptly replied that that it was in fact one of his blanks and it was being misrepresented in the auction.

as for the steel used he said it was 0-1 and Mild, I am still learning all of the different steels and metals involved so any help on how well these are would be greatly appreciated!
 
Damascus now is the capital of Syria.more than 5000 years of civilization and for the Romans was the capital of the region, was very famous for this kind of steel which been made from two or even more different kind of steel which they used especially to make a kind of swords which were not very heavy and very sharp the,usually light and fast fighters and nights wanted this kind of swords, be with damascus steel you can make blades not very heavy ot carry and use but in the same time very resistant and difficult to break, easy to sharpen comparing to other types of steel!!, the secrets of this steel been kept always in the families of the sword´s makers´, so every family were making a different kind of damascus steel and improving their quality, in the mean time nobody has their original recites but many tried to make this kind of steel with a vary methods and techniques, it´s also believed that the origin of this steel before it becomes famous in Damascus comes from India!!.
ciao tutti.
 
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