Real world lock strength requirements?

V

Vee3

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Oct 16, 2006
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Forgive me if this has been gone over before. Search function doesn't seem to work at all for me...

There's a lot of talk about what type of lock is "strongest" on manufacturers' websites and other places. Some of the discussion reminds me of debating about buying a watch rated for 100 meters vs 50 meters depth by folks who will probably never go deeper than a hot tub.

I'm wondering if any of the various lock designs employed on quality folders today have any problems with failing. Not failure due to not locking properly upon opening or being accidentally tripped, but actual mechanical failure (During what would be considered normal use for most people).

The reason I ask is that I'm not familiar with some of the newer designs (I've only had the standard "lockback") and I'm trying to figure out if it should really matter to me what type of lock a knife has as long as I'm comfortable using it. I don't want to limit myself to a knife with a super-duper lock design if it's going to be overkill (Or hype). I'm looking for a folder with a lock that will withstand semi-heavy use for camping/hunting, but doesn't need to be able to survive being run over by a tank (Which no doubt some guys need, just not me).

Also, any hints on the most secure and "user friendly" lock designs for non-knife people would be helpful. I sometimes camp out with groups of people who need to borrow knives sometimes but haven't used one outside of a kitchen (I'm sure a fixed blade would be ideal for this, but I don't carry one with me).

Thanks again for the great forum. The info and people here are more helpful than on most any other forum I've visited.
 
the very existence of slipjoints speaks volumes

I'm of the opinion that any decent cutting tool will fail at the blade first, the pivot pin next, possibly the handle (like linerless carbon fiber or micarta) Locks can be disengaged, but I haven't seen them break.
 
I'm personally glad to see that liner locks seem to be falling out of favor. I'm not a big fan of this kind of lock. I've had too many fail to have faith in the liner lock any more. When done correctly, a liner lock can be strong, but there are just too many things that can go wrong. Over time, the lock position can move, or can be disengaged by twisting, or wasn't set up correctly at the factory etc. etc. Also, I don't like the idea of having to put my fingers in the path of the blade in order to close it. I'm delighted by the resurgence of the ol' lockback. Done correctly, I don't see any way how a lockback can fail. I see no way the lock on my Manix could ever fail, there's just too much metal in the way for the blade to close unless I want it to.

As for real-world lock strength, there's no lock in the world that is strong enough to overcome stupidity. No matter how strong a lock is, there's always a way you can figure out how to screw up and cut yourself. There's no substitute for common sense.

My grandfather used a folding knife without a lock his entire life, and to the best of my knowledge, he never cut himself. He used a Buck 301 all of the time, doing heavy-duty farm work with it (prying the shoes off of horses etc.) and I never saw him close the blade unless he wanted to. If you use a blade in the direction it is meant to be used (edge moving towards what you want to cut) the type of lock you are using is basically irrelevant. You only really need a lock if you are flailing about blindly, doing something that's probably not a good idea in the first place.
 
Vee3 said:
..... I'm looking for a folder with a lock that will withstand semi-heavy use for camping/hunting, but doesn't need to be able to survive being run over by a tank (Which no doubt some guys need, just not me).

Also, any hints on the most secure and "user friendly" lock designs for non-knife people would be helpful.
Click to expand...
IMO a good lockback would satisfy both these requirements.

Other, more modern designs such as the Benchmade axis lock and Spyderco compression and ball locks have earned good reputations for strength and reliability, but may not be as user friendly for non-knife folks. A good frame lock could also be a good choice.

hardheart said:
the very existence of slipjoints speaks volumes
Click to expand...
You took the words right out of my mouth (keyboard?) Perhaps more important than anything is that people using knives understand and respect their limitations. While it seems like everyone today wants greater and greater lock strength, we forget that our fathers and grandfathers got a whole lot of work done with slipjoints ..... and I don't recall too many of them having missing fingers or anything.
 
Just the other day I went to cut something overhead at work. As I was bringing the knife up, I whacked the spine hard on a piece of angle iron about waist high. If it had been a slipjoint, a trip to the ER might have been the order of the day. I whacked it hard enough that a flimsy locking knife might well have failed.

I've had a liner lock knife fail in reverse. Pressing down hard caused the blade to flip up. While it wouldn't have cut me, it might have posed a balance problem on a ladder.

I always pick a knife for work with a strong lock. It doesn't need to be the strongest in the world but it must be a quality lock.
 
Vee3 said:
I'm wondering if any of the various lock designs employed on quality folders today have any problems with failing. Not failure due to not locking properly upon opening or being accidentally tripped, but actual mechanical failure (During what would be considered normal use for most people).
Click to expand...

There is a significant difference between strength and security. You have chosen to consider only mechanical failure, but in almost all of the many threads I have read concerning lock failures in use, it was accidental disengagement not mechanical breakdown that caused it. For example, the lockback that closed because of lint or debris in the blade notch, or a twisting motion folding up a liner lock. Vary rarely did any of the parts actually physically bend or break, and when they did there was usually batoning or it's equivalent involved. Unless you feel you require that level of performance in a folder I think looking at the question differently might serve you better.

IMO, lockbacks are a favorite for strength and security (keep the notch clean :) ). I don't mind their two-handed nature since I rarely find it really necessary to open and close my knife one-handed though admittedly it can be convenient. Years of slip joints might have something to do with that.

Incidently, slip joints have no locks and despite this can be used quite safely as others have pointed out. I've found the greatest danger with a S-J to be working with the point, plain cutting is not a problem.
 
Agree with the sentiment that lock strength and lock security are different things. People sloppily use the term "strength" to mean both, and then get way to focused on strength. Not always, but the vast majority of the time, when I have a problem with a lock, it's a security issue, not strength.

The only lock format I really distrust is the liner lock. Yes it can be made to be secure, but is so difficult to do consistently that it's just not worth the crapshoot to me. Framelocks share some of the liner lock's problems, but are still above the cutline for me. Most other locks, from lockback to axis lock to compression lock etc., seem to generally be secure, and it's more of a case-by-case basis on which are good or bad.
 
I doubt that I'll ever need anything stonger than the Axis lock on my Benchmade 710. If I do, I need a fixed blade, not a folder.

I agree with the security issue. You can't design out any chance that the knife will be misused by an idiot.

The only one that I'd be really "queasy" about carrying is the liner lock. I just don't trust them. But maybe that's just my inexperience showing.

Ben
 
The CS Ultra Lock might seem overkill, but when it comes to my fingers I'll take all the overkill I can get within reason. 200 lbs. free-weight hanging from the lanyard hole without significant bending close is the best lock IMO.
 
Thanks. I'll probably stick with the old lockback. I can't really see all that much advantage of the newer designs for my purposes.

I've seen some liner lock knives that I like, but I can see how if not designed or fitted properly (Or worn to the point they didn't fit anymore) would probably be the most likely to fail. Some of them appear to be kinda flimsy...
 
Take a long look at the axis lock. Easy one hand opening and closing, and incredibily strong.
 
Lynn, is that you?

I'll agree with the axis lock and Spydercos lockback design. A quality framelock will also do.
 
Any lock needs tested for reliability and strength in my opinion. I too am very wary of liner locks. Particularly ones that barely engage the blade when its opened but I have learned what to look for enough to know a good one from a bad one pretty quick. The lock not engaging that much of the blade is not always a sign of something wrong. I guess I to me it just looks bad. I've had them that go clear into the middle still defeat on me during tests. There are still always variables. I've seen even the Axis lock, ball bearing lock, lockback and framelocks fail too though so liner locks are no different there except in maybe the occurance of this happening.

In answer to your question though. Real world is hard to define I guess. I've seen what I call lock snobs that simply want the newest and greatest at any cost as they come out and I've seen the total opposite. For example, I have a guy local that comes by once a year with the same old Ralph Freer liner locking folder he has had for years. At least 6 that I know of anyway. Now this is a very handsome knife. Small but a gents knife with no clip, wood handles, one locking liner of titanium on an ATS34 blade. He brings this by my house every year around the first of the year to be sharpened almost religiously. The lock fails on this knife from simple spine pressure on the blade and not really all that much. I told him about it and recommended he keep an eye on it. When he asked me if it could be fixed I told him the angle at the interface was a bit steep and that Ralph would be his best bet there.

He never sent it to Ralph or even tried to contact him. He just uses it knowing what he knows and says he has never had any problems with it. For him its fine just knowing. For someone else its faulty and not worth carrying. Go figure.

STR
 
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