Realistic expectations for edge retention

S

stillshot2

Joined
Jun 6, 2014
Messages
581
I really do like my Spyderco endura, but I'm not so sure how I feel about VG10 steel. I feel like it requires a touch up more often than I like to have to do to keep it receipt paper slicing sharp. For example, I was cutting a lemon and hit a seed, backed off and didn't even cut through it but afterward had to touch it up on a ceramic rod to be able to slice thin paper again. Is this to be expected for VG10? Would super steels also require this much attention? I'm thinking K390 or zdp189 would probably hold a fine edge like this better but something like a lemon would give a patina in no time I presume, and I just can't get behind that look for a blade. Thoughts?
 
Agree. ZDP is technically stainless. But it's not as stainless as many other alloys.

It is not just the alloy, it's also the geometry. You put a thin enough edge angle on a blade and it won't matter what alloy you use, it will take a ding pretty easily.

Putting a ding in a blade is usually due to hitting something harder than the blade. So it also depends on the hardness. "super steels" are normally known for wear resistance, which does not prevent dings, although some of them are treated to a higher hardness.

Spyderco usually runs their VG10 blades at about a 59. That gives a good combination of toughness and edge retention. ZDP is usually run a bit harder. Low 60's I think. So, maybe it would help. But if you want to be able to run your blade into hard objects with little damage, my best advice is to use a more oblique primary edge angle.
 
having a spydy delica in vg10, (many years ago now) ... over the first few months it required touch ups more often... like needing to get past the initial edge to get better edge retention

(never from a seed however lol... zip ties and hard plastic were usually the culprit)
 
That doesn't seem right.

Spyderco is known for their quality checking, so it's unlikely that a blade with poor HT got out of the factory, but it's not impossible.

So, the first question: where did you get this Endura? I have a reason for asking, just stay with me.
 
It's a thin red line endura from cutleryshoppe. Highly doubt it's a fake. If I remember correctly the box was dated near end of 2021. The knife actually came quite dull and had an uneven grind on the non serrated portion so I had to put a bit of work into it to get it to cut like any of my American Spydercos did from out of the factory. Guess I'll try not to run my primary edge so thin?
 
"Is it possible you got a counterfeit" was exactly what I was leading up to. So, we're left with poor HT, a bad batch of steel (it happens), or you're running like a ten degree edge. Which, if that's the case, can you teach me the patience necessary to sharpen down that far?

Even a "thin" edge (fifteen degrees or so) shouldn't notice a lemon seed. If anything, it would laser through, even better.

I would consider picking up another VG-10 Endura, possibly from a different supplier, to see if it performs differently.
 
I have used Spyderco Enduras more than any other knife , not so much anymore but in years past for hours a day. I have cut carpet for stairs using only a half serrated endura and it cut all day but was quite dull by around hour 4 or 5. VG10 seems to hold a slightly course edge better than a razor type edge in my usage. I normally sharpen to a mirror like edge but with VG10 I stop just shy of that. I cannot imagine a lemon seed dulling a properly heat treated edge in one go so you may still have to work past the original edge steel in case they burned it at the factory.
 
Never thought about a burnt edge. Just going to keep using it and working on it and see how it plays out over time. Didn't think a lemon seed should affect a blade too much, my cutco kitchen knife I inherited years ago chops right through them which I believe is only 440A steel. Another thing I cut through with my Endura that dulled the edge enough to require sharpening afterwards was a plugged dripper hose in my in laws yard. It was clogged with mud so I thought I'd just cut the end off but the clog ran far up and I stupidly cut through dirt and sand in the tube. I'm not surprised it was hard on my blade and did leave scratches on the satin finish, but would higher end steels be unphased?
 
I carried and used this one for about a month, nothing crazy. Guess what? It needs sharpening. It will still kind of shave arm hair at the heel of the blade, but it's nothing like it was when new. And it's made of the magic stuff. My expectations were a bit higher as far as edge retention and I think this is about as good as it gets.

H7Z30LH.jpg
 
stillshot2 said:
but afterward had to touch it up on a ceramic rod to be able to slice thin paper again
Click to expand...

This may sound crazy, but maybe try it... What if instead of doing stuff with your knife and then trying to cut receipt paper with it you do stuff with your knife and just keep doing stuff until it won't do the stuff you need it to do? I get it, we all like sharp knives, but once I stopped worrying about keeping my knives sharp and just started sharpening my knives when they would no longer perform the task I needed them to do I gained more time in my life. Seemingly much better edge retention that way!
 
When you get deep into the weeds of wire edges, false edges, edge finishes, and cutting techniques, you can start to find that what should be a very objective fact is indeed very subjective. The old Ginsu knives, cut a brick then slice a tomato? Those are a magic trick, straight up, it's in the technique of the user. I'm convinced that some people have accidentally learned to use their knife to get a certain result, which leaves them feeling like they are losing an edge when someone else has learned to push on, and keeps cutting, neither knowing they are doing anything in particular. It's very possible that you are just running your edge a shade finer than what the steel can support, and so losing the edge that is your goal, or similarly, the finish that is getting that receipt paper to cut is not as resilient as you'd like. The good thing is that with VG10, you should be able to make some slight adjustments and see what happens. If the blade cuts what you need to cut, then it's good, if you are pushing to an artificial standard, then you may find you are chasing an unobtainable goal, and are not satisfied. In future, try to feel if the edge is rolling or blurring after an incident like this, and use that info to adjust your sharpening, since a ceramic rod can certainly act in the same way that a burnishing steel does.
 
stillshot2 said:
I really do like my Spyderco endura, but I'm not so sure how I feel about VG10 steel. I feel like it requires a touch up more often than I like to have to do to keep it receipt paper slicing sharp. For example, I was cutting a lemon and hit a seed, backed off and didn't even cut through it but afterward had to touch it up on a ceramic rod to be able to slice thin paper again. Is this to be expected for VG10? Would super steels also require this much attention? I'm thinking K390 or zdp189 would probably hold a fine edge like this better but something like a lemon would give a patina in no time I presume, and I just can't get behind that look for a blade. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think you need to work on your sharpening with a Spyderco Sharp Maker. Use 20 degrees per edge and don't get concerned about cutting paper. This is a knife, not a razor blade. VG10 is good stuff for a knife.

 
GatorFlash1 said:
This is a knife, not a razor blade. VG10 is good stuff for a knife.
Click to expand...
Perhaps my perceptions are off since I see the good ol YouTubers show how sharp they can get their vg10 blade but for how long? Well that part doesn't really get shown much haha. I'm more still in the testing phases of vg10 and is why I keep slicing thin paper after a session of use to see how it holds up. But I do like how it doesn't take much to get vg10 back to hair popping sharp once I got the factory grind more even. And lemon juice didn't even phase it which proves its great corrosion resistance
 
Last edited:
stillshot2 said:
Never thought about a burnt edge. Just going to keep using it and working on it and see how it plays out over time. Didn't think a lemon seed should affect a blade too much, my cutco kitchen knife I inherited years ago chops right through them which I believe is only 440A steel. Another thing I cut through with my Endura that dulled the edge enough to require sharpening afterwards was a plugged dripper hose in my in laws yard. It was clogged with mud so I thought I'd just cut the end off but the clog ran far up and I stupidly cut through dirt and sand in the tube. I'm not surprised it was hard on my blade and did leave scratches on the satin finish, but would higher end steels be unphased?
Click to expand...

Spyderco's VG-10 is solidly okay. It's certainly a step up from 8Cr13Mov but also nothing to write home about. For instance, the 9Cr18Mov coming out of WE in the Civivi and Sencut knives tends to hold a better edge. If you want better edge retention from Spyderco without sacrificing corrosion resistance, check out other models in S30V, SPY27, S45VN, or even BD1N.

You can play around with geometry but more sharpening in general should help. The "burnt edge" thing is real. Unlike hand sharpening, the factory grinder can generate significant heat along the surface of the edge. How much varies and the rate of improvement over subsequent edges will depend on how bad it was and how deep the effect ran. It can vary from knife to knife but it's always there to some extent on a new production knife.
 
Probably any type of industrial/mechanical grinding of the knife edge has some negative impact unless a cooling solution is used with the grinder and the process is done very cautious and carefully. You don't get the heating effect on the blade when using a hand sharpener like a Spyderco Sharp Maker.

 
stillshot2 said:
Another thing I cut through with my Endura that dulled the edge enough to require sharpening afterwards was a plugged dripper hose in my in laws yard. It was clogged with mud so I thought I'd just cut the end off but the clog ran far up and I stupidly cut through dirt and sand in the tube. I'm not surprised it was hard on my blade and did leave scratches on the satin finish, but would higher end steels be unphased?
Click to expand...
Sand is harder than any steel.
When you hit something hard like sand grains or staples, steel with very high edge retention is more likely to chip than is steel with very high toughness. Steel with very high toughness tends to roll rather than to chip.
knifesteelnerds.com

Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist - Toughness, Edge Retention, and Corrosion Resistance - Knife Steel Nerds

Steel Metallurgist Larrin Thomas uses tests of knife steels to rate the steels and explains the factors that control performance.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top