Realistic pricing expectations & licensing designs

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Pumpiron

Joined
Jan 6, 2011
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As an engineer and hobbyist I've made a few knives that I think turned out well, and I'm continuing to improve with the help of jigs. As my limited time permits, I'm interested in eventually selling around a few dozen future knives and especially in licensing my designs if the money is right. I could use some help establishing realistic expectations of what I might successfully charge. I intend to copyright my designs and this isn't the place I'd first disclose them, so I'll just include general descriptions, knowing I'll only get general answers. Perhaps some of you with experience could suggest price ranges and address the series of questions below? I would be most appreciative of your expertise and insight. I'd also be delighted to chat on the phone with someone who has been down the licensing road before and might be kind enough to volunteer a few minutes of mentorship.

Custom knife descriptions and questions
  • No established reputation
  • Premium PM Vanadium steels (e.g. M390, M4, etc) optimally treated for intended use by Peters'
  • Stylish, performance-driven designs matured over dozens of iterations and extensive research
  • Innovative handle designs for superior ergonomics. One general example I'm comfortable mentioning would be setting the blade at an angle to the handle in order to maintain a straight wrist.
  • 6-9 inch fixed blades for outdoor, kitchen, military, and fishing use, e.g. survival, hunter, hard use, chef, filet, utility, etc. Perhaps you could suggest a range of prices for each?
  • Hollow and flat grinds with 500-1000 grit belt finishes and/or patterned cold blue finish
  • Full tang construction with contoured solid G10 or stabilized burl handles
  • Reasonably good workmanship: fairly complex grind lines without obvious flaws, but no specialty work like milling, engraving, or extra-fancy fantasy flourishes. Probably not quite as crisp or precise as an experienced maker might accomplish.
  • Pressed and riveted Kydex sheaths, possibly with a thin interior liner. --Could anyone offer sheath liner material recommendations for avoiding rust and scratches? Not leather.
I notice prices listed here on the forums are frequently much lower than some of the custom knife sales sites, even when the quality of select examples appears fairly comparable. Why is that? Is there a barrier to selling on premium sites? Must a reputation be first established? How much of the price is quality of materials and workmanship and how much is reputation (barring some obvious leaders)? How does time to sale compare? Could you recommend the best places to sell?

Licensing designs to manufacturers
  • How might I establish contact with manufacturing decision makers? I'd much prefer to avoid the time and expense of travel and knife shows/contests.
  • What mainstream or midtech manufacturers might be most receptive to design offers?
  • Would I need to provide prototype(s) of these premium materials, or would modeling materials, pictures, CAD models, or even 2D designs be sufficient? Must a prototype be flawless, or merely a proof of concept?
    [*]What would a reasonable range of royalties be, and for what realistic volumes of products? What practical business arrangements might you suggest? What pitfalls or profit-killing traps should I be wary of?
  • How can I protect my work so that my specific designs or even general design concepts are not scooped, even with some minor variations? Is a copyright sufficient? Am I likely to get them to sign an NDA without first seeing my work?
  • Avoiding copyright infringement: I have made extensive efforts to research and avoid knowingly copying any existing designs. However, it's hard to avoid accidental similarity with some functional elements, such as recurves, swedges, and serration designs. Any commentary or principles?
  • How long is this shot, assuming that my designs indeed have self-evident innovation and utility? What are the market and competition like?
Of course I'm not trying to sell or advertise here, just seeking guidance for a possible future endeavor. I've read the highly informative sticky about trying to make a living by making knives full-time and that's not my intent. While I'm looking for general estimates rather than inappropriately specific public disclosures, if there's a specific manner or location the forum requires for handling the discussion of business arrangement examples, I'd be glad to conform as advised. Some specifics would probably be better mentioned in a PM. I'd particularly appreciate thoughtful, on-topic posts from experienced contributors. Thank you very much in advance for your insight.
 
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I'm glad you are excited about your hobby, buy you need a dose of reality. I'm not saying this to discourage you from working on your designs, but simple to give you some more realistic expectations.

If youn had a new computer chip that was already designed and tested that would make the current processors look like dinosaurs, I would say everything you listed would be good thinking. But the knife industry isn't likely to be turned upside down by any new idea.

You will almost never make money designing knives...unless you are a maker who builds and sells them.

Re-inventing the wheel is also unlikely. Ergonomics and physics involving knives is well established. Making "cool" features with angles and such rarely adds anything, and usually is less efficient.

As an unknown maker with little or no experience, you have almost zero chance of licensing your designs to a big manufacturer. They partner with the big dogs, like Ken Onion, and they have staffs of designers working on new ideas.

As far as a copyright on a knife you designed...good luck.

While a new concept comes up every now and then ( new lock or pivot system), a shape, style, use, etc. almost surely won't be new or unique. The new ideas come from people in the industry who see a hole with no peg to fit it. I have never seen or heard of a non-maker who came up with a new concept.

"....How long is this shot, ..." Buy a lottery ticket. It has a better chance. "....assuming that my designs indeed have self-evident innovation and utility?..." That is a big assumption and you will have to prove it with experience and actual product.

All the above aside, have fun and work on your simpler designs. I would not worry about having them stolen, just make them and see how the public responds. If a business, fame, and fortune comes out of it, that will be great. If not, at least you had fun.
 
I have to agree strongly with Stacey on this one. What your plan looks like, seems similar to me walking into Ford head office and telling them i have a sweet idea for a new car design. Manufacturers partnering with designers is based on many things. Most often they are partnering based on the reputation of a maker who is already producing a successful model in a custom run. They often just turn that design into a production run after it has already been proven by a big time maker. It would be unlikely that they would partner with no reputation and no proven sales. They are highly unlikely to invest huge time and money for CAD and tooling, in a design that does not have proven market appeal and value. Virtually all the designers i can think of were already well established makers on their own. Lucas Burnley, Jens Anso, Ken Onion, Rick Hinderer, Butch Vallotton, Bob Lum, Mel Pardue. All of these guys had their own designs and reputation before any collab. Im not saying it cant be done, but it will be a tough row to hoe. I would focus on producing some of these designs, perfecting your fit and finish, and seeing how the designs do on their own first.
 
Nobody is going to steal your designs if you post them here. Especially since you have no previous experience in knife making. I suggest that you post some sketches of your ideas so you can get some real feedback. You are certainly putting the cart before the horse here.
 
S.Alexander said:
Nobody is going to steal your designs if you post them here. Especially since you have no previous experience in knife making. I suggest that you post some sketches of your ideas so you can get some real feedback. You are certainly putting the cart before the horse here.
Click to expand...

Don't believe this guy...... Post a cool design here, and the Chinese knock off may hit stores before the virtual ink is dry!




But, for reals post up some pics.






Maybe you can make a FFB (Folding Fixed Blade), that addresses lateral strength...... then everyone would jump all over the design...........
 
I understand and appreciate your consensus on licensing designs. How about addressing some of the other questions, especially in the upper section about selling custom knives? Thanks.
 
Selling custom knives is sort of the same thing. If you are an unknown maker with no track record, it is harder to sell any "different" knife. Start with the tried and true, and some of your more basic designs. make some and have the chaps here critique them. Once you are happy with your product, go to some shows as a seller, or put them in the Exchange ( requires a knifemaker membership level).

The very best way to get recognized and started in the right direction is to post some sketches here and see what people think. The chaps here ( tens of thousands of them) are all makers and buyers. they know what will and won't sell.
 
Sorry to tell you this man, but you need to completely forget about licensing fixed blade knife designs until you become an established and respected professional custom knife maker. Large manufacturers do not make collaborations with custom knife makers because of the designs (except in rare and unusual situations like with the Emerson knives), but because they want to put the knife makers name on their product. Another thing is your "innovative" designs have most likely been done for thousands of years. For example your idea of setting the handle and the blade at an angle is something that has been done a lot for a very long time all over the world. However if you design a new and improved locking, closing, or opening mechanism for folding knives you should look into patenting and licensing your idea.
 
Hey Pumpiron,

Don't get too discouraged, this knife designing and making stuff is a hard field to get into to make money. One almost has to approach it as a hobby first, just something that you love to do, and then incidentally sell a few knives on the side. With any luck, you then may hit on something that people like and then sell a few more. Over time you get to know people in the business and then can establish the contacts needed to "maybe" take the jump and start your own knife business. Once again, it is a tough business to get into as there are so many others out there doing what you would be doing, and having already established names/brands.

I would not give up on your ideas though, I'd start putting your designs into practice and then see what the marketplace does with them. If nothing else, you will learn a lot along the way and be a better businessman for it. Best of luck to you!!!
 
I would strongly suggest you research manufacturers that seem to share your design cues already, and consider approaching them - even if it's merely an informal discussion. There's no question you're likely to have a tough time entering into a relationship with a company without having any background, but I'm sure it's not unheard of. I kind of wonder how many knives Grant and Gavin Hawk made before they were considered by manufacturers...

If there's merit to your designs, I would think that there's a lot of companies that would be willing to hear from you. Which ones will be willing to partner with you, and which ones will spit you up and chew you out, only you can determine. Not having relationships with the folks in these companies, or any connections - whether direct or indirect - is certainly going to add quite a bit of challenge, especially because you don't have a working portfolio to display that you can 'walk the walk'.

Hope it works out for you, but my guess is that you'll be the only one that will be able to find the path you'll need to take to get there.
 
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