Realistic training in FMA

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Feb 9, 2006
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I want to ask everyone what they think about sparring in the FMA.
Padded weapon, training knife, full contact stick, and WEKAF style sparring.

My philosophy right now is "try it all." However, I question the direct application of stick or knife sparring because it is more like stick or knife dueling.

I find it interesting to see how diametrically opposed some styles are on this issue. Some styles say this type of sparring teaches bad habits while others say it is the highest pinnacle of training. What does everyone think?
 
I want to ask everyone what they think about sparring in the FMA.
Padded weapon, training knife, full contact stick, and WEKAF style sparring.

IMHO...

Padded Weapon sparring: Excellent, cheaper than buying the whole body-padded suit, and safe for everyone. However, it can force people to be complacent at times and not move as much...they tend to underestimate the hardness of the padding. However, getting hit with a Smak-Stik hurts like a bitch lol.

Training knife sparring: Good for quick reflexes, footwork, and distancing, but overemphasizes dueling with the blade.

Full Contact Stick Sparring: Are we talking Dog Brother's-type stuff here? If so, it is beneficial for understanding the realities of the effect a weapon has on the body but the wear-and-tear isn't worth it, again, IMHO.

WEKAF Style Sparring: This is probably the worst of the four. It is just aimless witiks and abanicos being thrown back and forth, blow-for-blow, which is totally unrealistic. Remove the padding and see how long the two competitors last. However, it is better than nothing...and it does teach aggression. However, it isn't good for sharpening technique and learning how to respect the weapon.

My philosophy right now is "try it all." However, I question the direct application of stick or knife sparring because it is more like stick or knife dueling.

There is a lot of debate between dueling VS. assault methods in training. Many people feel dueling-style sparring develops bad habits for the street because it is widely believed that there is absolutely no dueling on the street...many people believe it's simply an assault. This is very much true...most weapons attacks are delivered with ruthlessness and aggression, without warning. However, there are many benefits to dueling. First off, not every criminal out on the street has the balls to just rush you and stab/club you relentlessly. I've heard of many situations from friends where the group of attackers (who were armed) didn't simply rush their chosen victim(s). In fact, many of them we trying to egg the other members of the group on...because they were hesitant to do anything. In times like these, when the criminal(s) are attacking, but reluctantly attacking, dueling-type training may have some merit. However, I personally believe that 80 percent of sparring in training should deal with assaults as opposed to duels. Secondly, dueling-type sparring helps develop speed, reflexes, distancing, and timing, which also serves well in a real-fight, and it also promotes physical conditioning, which is also very essential in a real-fight.

If someone is assaulting you with a knife (i.e. rapidly and repeatedly thrusting the blade into your neck/torso without warning), and you happen to have a knife yourself (this is a rare situation I know but bear with me), it's important to not respond with equal aggression...even if you kill the guy, you will also get chopped to bits yourself. Sparring, while it may be dueling in many respects, teaches controlled aggression, which is essential for real-world fighting as well. You need to be aggressive, but aggressive with a plan. You can't just go in there and begin stabbing away...or else you will get hurt in the process. I'm not saying that sparring is the be-all-end-all of training, but it is essential.

I find it interesting to see how diametrically opposed some styles are on this issue. Some styles say this type of sparring teaches bad habits while others say it is the highest pinnacle of training. What does everyone think?

Personally, I think sparring is essential. I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is the "highest pinnacle of training" as you put it...but it is essential. Far too many FMA guys do sumbrada, sinawali, and other pattern-drills over and over without actually applying the techniques in real-time against a live, resisting opponent. However, it is important to do sparring in a realistic fashion. By realistic, I mean A) Respecting the weapon B) Not thrashing and bashing back and forth C) Being aware that there may be another attacker who can jump you from behind and D) Using real contact. Here are some ways to make your sparring more realistic:

1) Mass Attack Sparring: Try sparring 2, 3, or more attackers at once. The Mass Attackers should be able to circle you, blindside you, and rush you whenever they feel like it.

2) Team Tactics Sparring: Try getting a buddy and have the two of you spar against another pair of guys. Or, make it 3 on 3, or 2 on 5, or 5 on 10...whatever.

3) Floating Sparring: Spar against only one guy, but this time, have another guy in the room try to tag you lightly as you spar. This trains your awareness. The guy trying to tag you is the "floater".

4) Mixed Sparring: Instead of just sword VS sword, stick VS stick, or knife VS knife...try doing sword vs stick, knife VS sword, stick VS baseball bat, knife VS empty hand etc.

Hope this helps.
 
Wow, what a reply. :)

I do agree with you. I believe that WEKAF can give bad habits as you are constantly pushing in on your opponent. Don't get me wrong, I use this type of training, but it is only a small percentage. I have also used all the other forms of sparring.

I think all the forms of sparring are OK as long as you realize what they represent. They only mimic certain aspects of fighting but they are not the same thing as an actual fight. However, they can help you prepare for an actual fight.

Every once in a while I still run across the guys who, as a rule, do not spar. I would like to hear their arguments on the sparring issue.
 
I've only been doing Kali for about 7 months under Burton Richardson, so I'm pretty green. Howwver, I feel that you have to spar to have any confidence or chance in case of a real situation. We probably spend about 1/4 to 1/3 or our training time sparing. I've heard Burton use the analogy of swinging a baseball bat. You can teach anyone to swing a bat in 10 min. Does that mean they can hit a baseball? From what I've seen and experienced, the truth is only a small fraction of the stuff that is taught works. So practice that small amount and then go drill it. Sumbrada is super cool, and it may teach coordination, but is it useful for sparring? Not in my opinion. I've seen some guys that have amazing stick handling skills, but when we spar, their head is way too far forward, or they attack with abaniko's (sp?), or they ignore the hand shots. Get used to swinging the sticks, do some basic drills, then put on some headgear, hand protection, get a Smak-Stick and beat the hell out of each other. It's loads of fun.

Walker
 
Burton Richardson practices JKD also, right? I think he gave a lesson about sinawali=empty hands at the end of one of my Dog Bros. vids.

I think you are on track. Abanicos have a place and a time, but sometimes when you are doing all out sparring with heavy padding, people use them too much. Also, the hand hits, aaahhhh the hand hits. I see the same thing too. You can hit the head and the hand over and over and over with the heavy padding and not get a reaction. I guess thats part of the game.
 
i vote for padded sticks w/ eye protection. if you aren't afraid to get hit, you get complacent.

recently at WalMart i found kids baseball bats that were dense foam around a plastic core for around $5. 24" long and printed to look like wood. not my favorite length, but a great trainer for the price. they could probably break a finger if you landed it right, or stun someone. enough for light sparring practice.

i've done a Dogbrothers Gathering (6/05) and while i found it very valuable as far as "what do i -really- know?", you just can't do that very often. the law of averages will put you in the hospital. i managed to get away with a cut scalp and a chipped elbow.

for training, i advocate unarmed practice against armed opponents, maybe 1/3 of the time just to 'keep it real'.
 
Metis said:
recently at WalMart i found kids baseball bats that were dense foam around a plastic core for around $5. 24" long and printed to look like wood. not my favorite length, but a great trainer for the price. they could probably break a finger if you landed it right, or stun someone. enough for light sparring practice.

i've done a Dogbrothers Gathering (6/05) and while i found it very valuable as far as "what do i -really- know?", you just can't do that very often.

My brother and I used to fight with wiffle ball bats. That was fun and exciting. :D

Dog bros gathering, cool, very cool. Wish I had the money to travel that far and at least watch. I had a friend that went out there but Mr. Denny told him he shouldn't fight because he didn't have health insurance.....

That's called a "clue." :)
 
Pahtoocara said:
Dog bros gathering, cool, very cool. Wish I had the money to travel that far and at least watch. I had a friend that went out there but Mr. Denny told him he shouldn't fight because he didn't have health insurance.....

heh. they never asked our group. just gave us the 'only you are responsible for you' speech.
 
Metis said:
heh. they never asked our group. just gave us the 'only you are responsible for you' speech.

I like the speech, "anyways..our assests are minimal." It's great.

He had met Mr. Denny at prior seminars when he came to our local area. Instead of fighting Mr. Denny had him film the fights.
 
Marc was great. Eric Knauss is also a great guy. we talked style for a while because most of my experience is in western style stick (singlestick, wasters, dusak, armored combat w/ rattan). still looking for someone to show me the basics of French 'la canne', not to mention just becoming aware of Palo Canario....

...not enough time....
 
I did personal study in Irish cudgel methods for a while. I still find it interesting and fun.

However, I also believe that many of the Western MA secrets have been lost due to the gunpowder age. And of course the modernization of laws (ie the outlawing of duels).

I believe one of the last recorded duels in this country was in Xenia, OH with bowie knives. In the later 1890's it was held in the center of town with many witnesses. Both men died. One at the scene, the other later on.
 
Yes, Burton teaches a JKD class, although some traditional JKD people might say that he's not teaching "real" JKD. But that's a whole other discussion. That thing about the Bowie knife dual is pretty funny. Burton has told us that there are certain places in the Philippines that settle the biggest of disputes in an interesting way. They tie a big sarong around the 2 people, (I'm assuming men) so that they are both in a tight "circle", give them knives, and the one who dies last wins. Point being, we may train with knives and call it knife sparring, but the truth is that no one is a knife fighter. If you survive a knive fight, consider yourself lucky.
 
walkerl said:
Yes, Burton teaches a JKD class, although some traditional JKD people might say that he's not teaching "real" JKD. But that's a whole other discussion..

Someone who claims to be teaching the "pure" form of anything in this modern age is usually lying or making up their own system.

walkerl said:
They tie a big sarong around the 2 people, (I'm assuming men) so that they are both in a tight "circle", give them knives, and the one who dies last wins. Point being, we may train with knives and call it knife sparring, but the truth is that no one is a knife fighter. If you survive a knive fight, consider yourself lucky.

Very interesting. And, I agree with your point.
 
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