Really thinking about buying all the DMT Dia-Sharps 8x3s

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Jun 12, 2006
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I have a sharpmaker, have a EdgePro Apex...

But I just love sharpening freehand because it is so much more rewarding. The sound and feel of the steel sliding around the stone tells you what you need to do much better than any guided system could.

For me a EdgoPro is great and will make a perfect edge, but I have not used it in 6 or more months. What I have been using in my very very small collection of freehanding stuffs.

This includes, one DMT Course Dia-Sharp (love it,) and a set of Spyderco ProFiles (med and fine,) and one Huge Spyderco UF benchstone (the 306... Best sharpening stone ever!!!)

Ok, so this is working but I want a real benchstone set. I like the diamonds because of how fast the cut, and think they will cut any new supersteels to come just has well. ;)

Also like the Dia-Sharps a lot better than the hones with holes. Am not afraid to drop the $300 that the 8x3's (EEF, EF, F, C, EC, and EEC.) will cost. These should outlast me, and my kids will have them one day. All still just has flat as the day I got em'.


To all you freehanders can you tell me if there is a better way? (BTW I really really like diamonds but might consider others?)

Much Thanks in advance :)
 
Some like the diamonds for sharpening on into the fine grits. Most who are serious about freehand sharpening, looking for a mirror finish, and a very refined edge on hard steel blades, and the perfect polished edge, etc. use the diamond stones for the more coarse work and finish with whet stones. Usually Japanese water stones. Compared to water stones the DMT's are more convenient in that they don't require soaking in water before use, don't dish in the middle as they wear, and are very flat. The DMT's do a fine job and cut very fast for a given grit, but diamonds (at least when mounted on steel plates) leave a coarser finish with deep scratches and gouges when compared to water stones. These scratches run right into the edge and need to be removed/reduced with the next finer grit stone. The same is true of water stones but they tend to be more uniform in their scratch patterns and leave a smoother finish. DMT plates have diamonds at various depths (some stick up more then others) and this is part of the reason they leave a coarser finish. The diamond stones also change their effect resulting grit over time as the diamonds wear off. Usually the high ones first. Water stones stay the same as the wear off the broken down grit, forming a slurry which polishes more, and expose a new layer of grit all the time. If you are going for a very refined edge it is harder to get out the scratches in the next finer stone from DMT's then from a Japanese water stone.

Water stones work well on all the harder steels. Japanese kitchen knives regularly go up into the mid 60's in Rockwell numbers (like Rc65). Water stones require more maintenance, soaking, lapping to remove dishing. Because they expose new material all the time they wear down and since more use is in the middle of the stone they tend to dish and you have to lap them regularly. A coarse DMT is a good tool to lap water stones so that is another reason folks usually have a DMT in the coarser grits. A D8XX is very popular. I have a D8X which work very well on my Shapton water stones. If you are going to switch to a water stone at some grit it is best to do so at the point where you are done setting the edge angles and are starting to polish. Usually around 500# to 1000# grit JIS (water stones) or about 325# to 600# on the DMT's. Water stones debatably have a better feel and give more feed back as to when you are holding the correct angle while sharpening. This is a preference and just something to consider.

With most water stones you have to pick and choose from different manufactures for the different grits. The Shaptons are interesting. You can buy one brand in the various girts to work up to a refined edge like 500#, 1000#, 2000#, 4000#, etc on up to 16000#. They don't dish as much as traditional water stones, they don't require soaking,just some water on them, dry out fast, and they don't wear/dish as fast.

Some like the more toothy edge for slicing, or all around use, and don't want a polished edge. A toothy edge may cut (slice) better especially in a thicker blade and on some kitchen knives, and with steeper, more obtuse edge angles. In order to do the same job with a polished edge you usually need a thinner, harder, blade and edge design. So, for a thick, steep, rugged, outdoor knife some might prefer a toothier edge from the DMT's. If you are going there the DMT's are fine to finish with.

Hope that gives some information to help make a decision.
 
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DMT dia-sharps sound good, but you should get a stone mount with it or make a jig yourself or your knuckles will scratch the table :(.

Have you considered a 1X30 or 1X42 belt sander? It's not for everyone, but it works much more faster.
 
gary,I agree w/ you about the finish the diamond stones leave on the blade edge.Which is why I use Norton India and crystolon stones.They cut well leaving a satin edge (not the badly scratched)that can then be polished out nicely on a fine-Xfine Arkansas.Man what an edge they produce.Then if you want more polish just strop.DM
 
Just mount your stone up on a 2"X4" that gives you enough knuckle clearence and holds the stone allowing both hands free to hold the knife.DM
 
1. I suggest to have rather 11.5x2.5. Wide stone good for chisels, but for blade you better have longer surface.
2. You do not need full spectrum of grids. Faving many of then I end up using onlu XXC - 120 micron. C - 40 micron and, XE - 6 microns. And follow up with CrO (Green Rouge) on leather.
3. Make a stand - it is not about holding angle, but most to have more room for hands to hold blade in a convenient way.

You may see all my stones in this videos, as well as result of useing them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TscN9h-1xQ

Thanks, Vassili
 
Gary,

Awesome post my friend :thumbup:

I do like a polished edge, and I was thinking the DMT EEF would get me mostly there then the 306 UF from Spyderco would finish. But, remember I have never used a DMT EEF.. So that's why I ask the experts here. :cool:

I have no idea what the Spyderco UF is in terms of micron, but I really love the finish it leaves. Smooth, with a tiny bit of bite. Love going to the 7000 polishing tape on the EdgePro but for my needs the 306UF finish works "just right."

I am going to look into stropping, as it it now I do not even own one. I guess because I have been so happy from the Spyderco UF finish. :o


Well I guess I should start the search for some waterstones. I really would like to keep it under $300 for what ever set "we" put together. :cool:

I have a DMT Dia sharp course and that 306UF that would make the final "set." also going to get a rubber stone holder (because a wet towel does Slide a little) ... Will probably get a large dia sharp XXC for hogging...

So what else for going from the course to the spyderco 306UF. What stones should I get in that gap? :confused: will have a DMT XXC and that C for lapping the stone. So I guess "other" stones would be no problem to work with. :)
 
Gary,

Awesome post my friend :thumbup:

I do like a polished edge, and I was thinking the DMT EEF would get me mostly there then the 306 UF from Spyderco would finish. But, remember I have never used a DMT EEF.. So that's why I ask the experts here. :cool:

I have no idea what the Spyderco UF is in terms of micron, but I really love the finish it leaves. Smooth, with a tiny bit of bite. Love going to the 7000 polishing tape on the EdgePro but for my needs the 306UF finish works "just right."

I am going to look into stropping, as it it now I do not even own one. I guess because I have been so happy from the Spyderco UF finish. :o


Well I guess I should start the search for some waterstones. I really would like to keep it under $300 for what ever set "we" put together. :cool:

I have a DMT Dia sharp course and that 306UF that would make the final "set." also going to get a rubber stone holder (because a wet towel does Slide a little) ... Will probably get a large dia sharp XXC for hogging...

So what else for going from the course to the spyderco 306UF. What stones should I get in that gap? :confused: will have a DMT XXC and that C for lapping the stone. So I guess "other" stones would be no problem to work with. :)

I found no difference between E and EE.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
If you'd like to try your hand with waterstones I'd heartily recommend Nortons line, start with the 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grits. Use your coarse grit DMT stone for flattening the stones periodically. Excellent quality stones with tremendous "feel" or "feedback". The 4000 and 8000 are some of the very best stones in those grits made anywhere. They are all superb performers that won't cost you an arm and a leg and will last a long time. You will not need any other stones but once you get hooked on them, you will want more, lol. Check them out at www.nortonstones.com. You can buy them at www.toolsforworkingwood.com or www.sharpeningsupplies.com. Buy a stone holder while your there.

Good luck.
 
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There is also sharpness record thread, so it is interesting to see what people use to make their blades whittle hair. So you may actually see what technic does really work.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Get the set you won't regret :D

Once the XX fine breaks in it works great and there is a great difference between X fine and XX fine. It has taken almost 3 month's for my XX fine to break in and I still think its getting better. The spyderco UF ceramic as you know is the best finishing stone and is the same partical size as the XX fine DMT but the ceramic yield's a much better polish. Skip the waterstones the DMT and ceramic will produce much sharper edges faster.


I have used them all and if I were to start over it would be all DMT hones and a UF ceramic.:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

And for a strop, leather and Hand American diamond spray is the only way to go.
 
Thanks So-lo,

Competing with the edges you get from your EdgePro will be difficult free hand. It takes most folks a lot of practice. A lot more the using the EdgePro does. Don't get me wrong you can probably get a sharp knife quickly but the EdgePro can make a very consistent edge, progressing through the grits and never changing angle. That is hard to do for most. It sounds like you will enjoy it though and I think free hand sharpening is very rewarding, adds the freedom of not relying on the machine, and free hand stones pack and store smaller.

Sharp means different things to different people. Vassili's hair whittling is one good test. You should read that thread like he says. I have whittled hair but I think I lack the skill to do it consistently or need to try some different hair because sometimes I can and sometimes I can't with the same knife, hair, and sharpening. I mean I can whittle one hair and then not the next. Some probably don’t care if their knife can whittle hair, they may like a toothier finish then polished and their knives shave, cut paper and slice meat or tomatoes just fine. You can have an edge that will whittle hair but then run into a scratch and stop or cut the hair or catch on things when slicing. You have to decide what kind of edge you are looking for, what you will accept, and how long you are willing to take. Many are happy with sharp and some want it to look good too.

As an example, some folks go from 220# on a belt sander directly to stropping and the edge is very sharp. The stropping makes the edge much more refined, straightening out the burrs and or aligning all the little hairs of metal at the edge, but there are still big scratches left behind that come all the way to the edge and that are not affected by the stropping. Some like this better for certain task and on certain knives then a refined edge that is taken down to a polished mirror with all the previous coarser scratches removed.

If you do want a polished edge then I think you get to the end polished result faster if you depart from the diamond stones early on and switch to water stones. I am not saying diamond stones don’t work or do a good job. I just think they add work after some point in grit progression. You can get there many ways. With each progression to a finer grit you take out the high spots and work the metal down to the bottom of the scratches from the last coarser girt. The bigger the scratches the more work you do on the next stone. If the scratches vary in depth quite a bit, like they do coming from diamonds (especially new ones), you probably will get most of the scratches out with the next finer stones but not the deeper ones. Once you go on to finer and finer stones you will get those scratches out later.

Grit selection: The general rule in grit progression is to at least double the grit (or cut the micron size in half) and go no more then 4X the grit when changing to each finer stone. The bigger the step the longer you have to work with the next stone to get the scratches out from the last one (assuming you care to get them all out). Some stones cut faster then others and some leave smoother finishes then others for the same grit. Diamond plates cut fast but are rough and are not uniform in the scratch marks they leave. However not many things in free hand sharpening takes metal off as fast as a DMT extra extra coarse stone (or even a D8X). With all the DMT stones, especially the finer ones, you hear folks say, "break in" a lot. The diamonds setting higher in the nickel plating, that holds them on, and are the major offenders of the large variation in scratch pattern they make. These diamonds gradually get knocked off and the stone (first) over time and the stone becomes smoother and also acts like a finer grit. Eventual, when many of the diamonds are gone, the stone needs to be replaced.

Some things to consider in protecting you DMT stone(s). Apparently, you can ruin a DMT stone pretty easily by pressing down with too much force on a knife with fairly soft steel. The diamonds grab into the steel and get pulled out of the nickel platting that holds them on. I have never done that just read about it. This has also happened to some folks using them to lap water stones. DMT only recommends the D8XX for lapping but they leave quite big scratches and many folks use the finer ones to lap their water stones. Apparently the slurry created by removing grit from the water stones cuts the nickle holding in the diamonds. The D8XX leaves more room for the slurry to run off and any lapping should be done under running water. BTW, the Nortons come with a flattening stone.

When comparing grits, especially with your EdgePro stones, if you go with Japanese water stones, or if you mix and match stones remember there are several different rating or grading systems and they are drastically different. For the purpose of this discussion basically they are JIS (the Japanese system if you are looking at Japanese water stones), ANSI (the American system like common sand paper or wet or dry, DMT’s, and most emery stones, etc). and the EdgePro. I don’t know where Edgepro came up with theirs, but the EdgePro stones are much finer then anything else for their grit ratting. For example the EdgePro 320# stone is about the same as a DMT fine (which they rate at about 600#) and is somewhere between 400# and 600# sandpaper, which is about the same as a 1000# Japanese stone. Another example: the 800# (or 1000#) Edgepro stone is much finer then the DMT extra fine and about the same as a 3000# to 4000# JIS stone. So, this becomes pretty complicated when you talk about grits. The results are what count though. What stones do you have on your EP. That is why you can get an reasonable edge for a kitchen knife coming off the EP 320# and a pretty nice one from the 600# stone. Ben Dale recommends stopping with the 600# stone on most kitchen knives and says you are wasting you time with higher grits. I forget if he said 320# or 600# but I always go to at least the 800#. Obviously, this is not the case if you are concerned with mirror edges or harder knives with very obtuse edge angles like Japanese knifes.

I agree with Vassili that you don't need a full spectrum of stones (especially to get started) but they are nice and you spend less time with each stone when you have smaller jumps. Many are happy with one or two stones but that is not going to get you the kind of edges you are looking for and wont compare with your EdgePro.

Just a tip, if you are making very big jumps in grit and not trying to work all the scratches from the last grit out. Just increase the angle very slightly with the next finer stone and you will work the scratches on the very edge out faster and get a more refined edge much more quickly at the expense of some cosmetics. In addition, this doesn't work well for a chisel or a sushi knife with a flat one sided bevel.

I started with the Norton combo two stone set and I think they are great stones for starters considering the price. They do a good job. The jumps are relatively big, so you spend a little longer on each finer stone but the price is unbeatable around $30 a grit for a pretty big stone. The 220# stone dishes way too fast but it cuts pretty fast. The set is also a good learning tool. The higher grit stones work pretty well. The only reason to go to more expensive stones is probably the feel (feed back they give like you said “The sound and feel of the steel sliding around the stone tells you what you need to do much better than any guided system could”), to add more grits, some don't dish as fast, and some of them cut faster and leave a smoother finish at the same time. Do you get that sound and feel you are looking for out of your DMT? I don’t, but that is just personal preference.


I think your DMT coarse is a great place to start off a collection of freehand stones. If you got a set of Norton’s your DMT coarse could substitute for the 220# side of the stone that wears and dishes way to fast. I think the 220# Norton would further refine the finish though after the DMT and then you wouldn’t use it enough to dish it very fast. Most of the time you probably wont have to start that coarse anyway. That is for mild reprofiling, setting edge angles, and repair of nicked and dinged edges (like the 120# on an EP). Most of the time you can start with the 1000#. After that the jumps in grit are very doable. Just be sure to work on each grit long enough to remove the scratches from the last one. The 8000# is very soft and you need to use stropping (trailing edge) strokes to avoid cutting into it (which is very bad for holding a sharp edge or keeping a flat stone). If I remember correctly Norton has some very good directions for using the stones and a DVD.

Good Luck which ever way you go and enjoy,
Gary
 
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I'm also thinking about getting this set. I have to say that I regret purchasing the perforated stones; I should have gotten the Dia-Sharps from the start.

2. You do not need full spectrum of grids. Faving many of then I end up using onlu XXC - 120 micron. C - 40 micron and, XE - 6 microns.

I agree. Since I only have perforated stones, I can only start from XC, though (not XXC). I go from XC to F to Spyderco Fine. I don't see any reason to go from XC to C; that just seems like a waste of metal to me since F gets rid of the deep scratches quite quickly.

3. Make a stand - it is not about holding angle, but most to have more room for hands to hold blade in a convenient way.

Yeah, I'm working on a project to make a stand with variable angle settings. I actually asked this question on one of your videos:

The angle at which the stand is set should be HALF of the angle you're looking for on the edge's inclusive angle, eg: if you want a 30˚ edge, your stand should be 15˚, correct?

I have no idea what the Spyderco UF is in terms of micron, but I really love the finish it leaves.

I believe it's 3 micron, the same as DMT XXF (extra extra fine). It doesn't happen to be on my chart for comparison, though.

GritChart.jpg
 
They say the spyderco UF is 3 microns but from my experiences I would put it at 1 or 2 microns.
 
I agree. Since I only have perforated stones, I can only start from XC, though (not XXC). I go from XC to F to Spyderco Fine. I don't see any reason to go from XC to C; that just seems like a waste of metal to me since F gets rid of the deep scratches quite quickly.

XXC works as a grinder. I use it only to remove S-curve on some knives, remove serrations, on heavily damaged edges and on new knives from manufacturers who put thick and uneven edge on their knives.

Yeah, I'm working on a project to make a stand with variable angle settings. I actually asked this question on one of your videos:

The angle at which the stand is set should be HALF of the angle you're looking for on the edge's inclusive angle, eg: if you want a 30˚ edge, your stand should be 15˚, correct?

Sure, but do not bother to make variable angle mechanic. First - it is easier to make three stands for common angles and second - you may manage to change this angle by hands after little practice.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I am not sure where it came from but I do not "protect" my diamonds. May be it is true for some other manufacturers, may be for polycristallite, but DMT does not show any sign of diamond being grabbed by soft steel and pulled out of nickel. I can not figure out this explanation really. On my experience this is looks like urban legend. Only thing I did wrong once - tried to polish titanium - somehow it just pollute the stone and I was not able to clean it, but it was not DMT and I never try this again. May be this is what it is all about.

I am using DMT XXC for little less then 2 years, pretty heavily, removing serrations, S-curves, deal with very thick edges - etc. It continue to work so far. So on my experience - it is not pretty easy to ruin.

I have this sequence of grits: 120 microns - 45 microns - 9 microns - Green Rouge. I check under microscope - no scratches. I think may be I just sharpen long enough to eliminates them all? But I only check for burr to see if I am done with current grit.

With hair whittling - I know this trouble, initially I was not able to do this stable as well, but now it is not an issue any more - I learn how to do this stable. Also you should know that hair is like palm tree and need to be whittled with cut going from top to root. May be this is why it is different from hair to hair?

Thanks, Vassili/
 
I have used them all and if I were to start over it would be all DMT hones and a UF ceramic.:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
I really have to agree with this. I have a lot of stones, and enjoy using them all, but if I had to be a minimalist, DMT and Spyderco ceramic would be all I needed.
 
I really have to agree with this. I have a lot of stones, and enjoy using them all, but if I had to be a minimalist, DMT and Spyderco ceramic would be all I needed.

+2, but I do love to create mirrors with water stones and .05 micron finishes with lapping films.

Mike
 
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